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opalviolet
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Quote opalviolet Replybullet Topic: new theater costs
    Posted: 4/17/11 at 9:06pm
I have the daunting task of writing a grant for our new arts center.  I need to figure out how much we'll need to do all the lighting, sound, portable stage, electrical upgrades, contractors and designer costs - everything to do live theater and concerts in a large room.  We have 14' high plaster walls and oak flooring, so it's a very live space.  I'm an actor/singer, not a techie person.  Can anyone give me a ballpark figure?  Oh, and it's a dollar for dollar matching grant, so I don't want to be too far over or under. I look at lights and sound equipment and I'm lost.  I have no idea what we need.  Yikes!
I posted this in Lighting and Sound then thought maybe I should have posted it here.  Sorry.
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Quote KEB54 Replybullet Posted: 5/29/11 at 4:24pm
You need a planning grant or at least budgeted funds for planning. You then need to hire an architect, preferably one with experience doing theatres, and have them lead you through the process. You don't need a detailed plan (ie drawings), but you do want to have a about a ten-page overview and one-page Executive Summary.
 
If you don't have your own technical experts on staff, either you or the architects need to get input from consultants. There may be a lot of hidden costs, for instance, you may need more than just equipment. You're going to have to look at the electrical service coming into the building, which may have to be upgraded by your electric provider.
 
You are NOT going to be able to get an accurate estimate from a source such as this.  You need experts there where you are to evaluate and make recommendations.
 
I'm guessing for $10,000 you can probably get the evaluations and planning documents done.
 
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Quote vickifrank Replybullet Posted: 5/30/11 at 11:36am
Consider asking a similarly sized recently completed Arts Center (or similar performance space--churches and schools may have similar spaces) for their costs.  If they will share this information you then have a starting point.  Also ask them what they wish they'd done.
 
You'd be surprise what information you can get for the price of coffee or lunch.
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Quote opalviolet Replybullet Posted: 6/05/11 at 9:26am
I don't know of any similar arts centers/theaters.  There are high schools and colleges around, but they are much larger. 
I did consult with an architect about the sprinkler system and he wanted $12,000 just to do a study for that alone. 
We're in a rural area, but near a small city with a university.  I contacted the university thinking someone in the theater department might help, say a grad student, but they said all they could do is post a flyer for us.  Of course, I don't know if they did and got no responses.
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Quote JoeMc Replybullet Posted: 6/05/11 at 9:51pm

Surely you would have a techie on hand in your group or at least one or two bods that have a glimpse of a clue, that collectively could form some sort of committee.

Then cobble or clag together a grant proposal, that could be suitable to submit & consult with the grant authority for a few tips on raising a suitable proposal. Or if they are prepared to supply tips or copies of old successful grant applications as a guide.

There is an old theatre adage which may be rather apt";-
 'If you want to suceed in this game, get a manager & stop handling yoursef!'
Also found on most drawings & plueprints;-
"if you don't know - Ask!"


Edited by JoeMc - 6/05/11 at 11:10pm
[western] Gondawandaland
"Hear the light & see the sound!
TOI TOI CHOOKAS
{may you always play to a full house!}
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Quote vickifrank Replybullet Posted: 6/06/11 at 9:49am
Consider sending a private message to DavidMichaelMax (a participant in this forum).  You can also search for his previous posts here.  Much of what he posted previously was what to do and what not to do.  He has a volume of information and tips on starting a theatre.  Perhaps he also has real numbers and figures to give you a starting point?  Besides he could advise you on what could be phased in over time and what has to be bought up-front.


Edited by vickifrank - 6/06/11 at 9:49am
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Quote museav Replybullet Posted: 6/11/11 at 9:00am
Originally posted by vickifrank

Consider asking a similarly sized recently completed Arts Center (or similar performance space--churches and schools may have similar spaces) for their costs.  If they will share this information you then have a starting point.  Also ask them what they wish they'd done.
 
You'd be surprise what information you can get for the price of coffee or lunch.
This is very true, but it can also be misleading if you're not careful.  I've worked on two performing arts facilities, one a high school and one a college, where they did not think they needed to do full geotechnical studies before construction.  That proved a false assumption and they both ended up not only with delays in getting the buildings built but with so many unexpected costs that in one case they opened with no sound system and very limited lighting since the money for those was used to deal with the site issues.  The point is that while you can get some good input based on other projects, you also have to be able to assess how that may or may not apply to your venue.
 
As it is, it's not real clear from the information provided just what may be appropriate or who should possibly be involved.  Is this a multi-million dollar new PAC or what do we have to do to convert an existing space for a small volunteer based troupe?  Are you looking to purchase property and build, build on property you own, move into an existing performance space, adapt an existing building, share a space used for other events or is that not yet known?  What size is the group, what you do (or want to do) and what type of performances and spaces are envisioned?
 
The first step is in any effort like this is usually to define where you want to go in general and functional terms, defining your perceived needs and vision.  In the design and construction industry this is called a Program or Needs Analysis and that type of information is going to be needed by any designers, Architects or consultants anyways so that they can understand your needs and vision, so it's just about always a good place to start.  This  document can address general issues such as needing a performance space with at least X seats or that you need to support dance performances.  It can address functional aspects such as requiring a box office that is accessible when the rest of the space is closed or neeeding a place for twenty Sugar Plum Fairies to gather before going on stage.  And it can address specific issues such as knowing you need a minimum Y' x Z' prop storage room or that you want a minimum X channel dimming system.  It can address technical aspects and subjective/aesthetic factors.  It can include critical'must haves', desired items and 'wish list' items (although it can be very beneficial to try to delineate and prioritize these).  The goal is simply to document as much as possible your vision for the space and what to you defines an ideal or at least successful result.
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Quote David McCall Replybullet Posted: 6/11/11 at 10:41am
Unless he/she can hire a project manager that knows what she/he is doing and can be trusted, they might well wind up with many of the same issues.
 
To me, the infrastructure of the building and the equipment to be used are completely separate. You need lots of electrical power, reasonable/legal seating areas with good exits and sightlines, places to hang lights, planed out ways to run wires from anywhere in the room to anywhere else in the room, separate bathrooms and dressing areas for actors/staff and the audience, loading door/dock, etc.. Then you need to consider how you will handle scenery as in room for wagons, and/or fly space, and so many other things that are really boring to most people. All of these things will be very important for as long as the room is used and all are extremely expensive to fix later.
 
Lights, sound systems, scenery, even chairs, can be rented or purchased later with no penalty.
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Quote Teqniqal Replybullet Posted: 6/24/11 at 12:51pm
Originally posted by David McCall

....the infrastructure of the building and the equipment to be used are completely separate. .... All of these things will be very important for as long as the room is used and all are extremely expensive to fix later.
 
Lights, sound systems, .... even chairs, can be rented or purchased later with no penalty.

I have to disagree.  You will always pay a penalty for 'scabbing-on' equipment after the building is finished.  For portable commodity equipment like microphones and stands this may be work, however, almost all other decisions about the infrastructure are highly dependent upon the types of equipment that are to be integrated with the facility.  The key word here is 'integrated'.  Not an afterthought.  The portable equipment is a small fraction of the cost of the technical systems for a venue.  If you don't know which types of equipment are to be installed, then you run the risk of improper infrastructure to support the equipment (power, structural support, space, heating, cooling, wiring, conduits, safe access, etc.).

Stage Rigging would be but one example - there are numerous different requirements for an electrically flown system over a counter-weighted system.  The structural loading being key, and the power and control conduits running a close second.

For a sound system, the concealment of the speakers so they are serviceable and functional while not presenting themselves as a visual distraction to the audience is important.  Scabbed-on loudspeaker arrays almost always clutter the visual environment.  Are they to be powered speakers, or passive?  Analog feed, or digital?  These basic assumptions must be clearly established so that the correct complement of conduits can be installed.

For lighting, the decision to use distruibuted dimming vs. centralized dimming completely changes the electrical distribution plan.  LED vs. Incandescent Houselights?  Again, a completely different electrical and dimming layout.  DMX vs. Network Control?  Wired or wireless?  Again, a different conduit topology.

The old adage "Measure twice, cut once" applies here.  Design what you want with infrastructure considerations for the future, and get it all coordinated so there aren't conflicts between systems, then build it.  To do otherwise will waste great sums of money trying to force equipment into spaces that weren't designed to house it.  A new theatre shouldn't be a series of kludges and make-do's due to lack of foresight.  The landscape is already littered with thousands of theatres that were built that way.  They are difficult to work in, and frequently unsafe for the performers, staff, and audience as a result.
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Quote David McCall Replybullet Posted: 7/11/11 at 1:15pm
Thank you for doing a fine job of making my point. There is a huge gap between what is the technology we want to own 10 years from now VS what can we afford today now that we are 6 weeks behind schedule for the planned opening and the cost are going through the roof. Your points are valid but some aren't relevant in my opinion.
 
So, you want to hide the speakers. That is fine, but what if you have to compromise either having a system that will save a few grand, or having the infrastructure designed such that you can fly what-ever you might want or whatever system comes in with a traveling show. What about getting to your speakers when a component needs repaired? Did the consultan give that much thought? 
 
Has anybody thought about having to change the house lights? Where will you need DMX in 2525? will it still be copper, or will glass be the thing to use in that decade. LED fixtures cost a bloody fortune today and there lumens per dollar are as bad as investing in wind power.  Odds are you will have to switch over to LEDs or some newer technology we don't even know about yet, just to be able to turn on the lights after "the energy cost necessarily skyrockets" as Obama has promised.
 
Do you know where you will put your lights when the director decides that the procession needs to come down through the audience using all 4 aisles? How will you get power to them? How will you get DMX to them?
 
What if you need to mix sound in the middle of the room? can you get a snake and power to there with out crossing a single high traffic area? Oops now we need to mix from the back of the room? can you get wires to there? What if you can only afford 16 channel analog audio console today, but you know that a 60 channel digital would be a much better option if you could afford it. Well you may never be able to afford that, but can you guarantee, that no one will bring one in? What's your plan in that brand new building? You want to tape wires to the floor and hope that the mayor's wife doesn't trip over them?
 
Does it make sense today to use distributed dimming? Will it still make sense once all of your lights need a power outlet and a DMX feed to run? Do you buy 200 cheap Leviton dimmers and raceways just let them sit once you can no longer afore to turn on a couple source 4?
 
What if you can really afford 12 line counter weight line sets now, but you really want to expand that out to 36 motorized sets later, by adding a few every couple years. If you don't plan the infrastructure with this in mind it will cost you a fortune. If you don't plan ahead, it may cost you a fortune to get to the grid to rig anything new.
 
It is far better to plan for what you really want with an eye toward evolving technologies. And plan for the fact that every piece of equipment you buy today will be an anchor around somebodies neck in 20 years or less.
 
Will you ever need to build up the stage to allow for tracks under the deck? Of course you don't know. But, did you consider it in your design? Where might you need a trap for the which to melt into? Will it want to be in the same place as the stairs to the basement in "You can't take it with you"?
 
Measuring twice is good, but when you have no idea what you will need to measure 10 years from now, then flexibility is the more important thing to consider.
 
I work in a room that considered almost none of these issues. To change some of the house lights, hang a pair of speaker arrays, put in a lineset, change the fluorescent worklights on the ceiling of the fly, put in a lighting position a little further back, would all involve renting a very expensive lift with a substantial crew, and I'm not quite sure how we would even get it into the auditorium. Oops, they forgot the proper loading door and dock.
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