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Choreography, Dance & Movement for Theater
 Community Theater Green Room Discussion Board :Producing Theater :Choreography, Dance & Movement for Theater
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dancingbarefoot
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bullet Posted: 3/20/07 at 3:37pm
To be honest, the totem pole comment was a joke , as well. But there are issues involved here. It is typcial of CTs that choreography is often an afterthought position and that pay usually reflects that, even though a choreographer may log as many (if not more) hours as a stage director in rehearsal with the cast, research, teaching, and creating the movement/staging that is to be applied. I think that choreography is often seen as just the stringing together of dance steps, which can be done by any high school kid taking dance lessons or local studio teacher, but that is not really the case. I’ve seen lots of CTs that this is what the “choreography” amounts to, and I’ve also worked with stage directors that limit the choreographers to just that because they know little about either choreography or dance. But, choreography can and should be more in a fully realized production. We strive for excellence in amateur acting - why not in movement as well (most amateur thespians aren’t trained actors either)?

Choreography is not the only skill in CT at the bottom, so to speak, but of the three positions in a musical that spend the most time working in and outside of rehearsal (stage dir., musical dir., and choreographer), it seems to be the least valued and appreciated. At least in the half-dozen CTs that I have experience with. And again, pay does reflect that (choreographers across the board typically get paid 1/4 if not less of what both stage and musical directors get).

I’d just like to advocate that a) there is more to choreography than just stringing together a few steps here and there, and b) that there are choreographers out there who are working artists and should be paid fairly. Many choreographers work as dancers, teachers and choreographers for a living. The same can rarely be said for those that work as stage directors in the CT environment.
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Mike Polo
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bullet Posted: 3/20/07 at 4:31pm
Nichelle,

No, I'm not a trained director, but I've been doing it for 17 years (on the job training, anyone?). I am a trained sound tech, made my living at it for a number of years, but never asked for a dime from a CT. Today, I'm employed as webmaster and computer programmer (yep, trained at that, too). I donate my expertise when asked to my local CT. Why? Because they need me. I've never made any money doing community theater (25 years and counting); it usually costs me money.
 
I'm sorry you think you should be paid more, but if it's the money that's important to you, why work for community theater in the first place? There ain't no money there. At least ask for more money and if the offer isn't good enough, tell 'em "no".
 
I think we all know that there is more to choreography than stringing a bunch of steps together, just as there is more to acting than learning your lines and not bumping into the furniture. As to the pay issue, well, nobody makes a living doing community theater.
 
You know the biggest payoff I ever got out of a community theater? Being asked to direct another show.
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slicksister
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bullet Posted: 3/21/07 at 1:59am
Here, here, Mike.  Here, here!
The Main Thing is to Keep the Main Thing the Main Thing
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tristanrobin
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bullet Posted: 3/21/07 at 8:54am
I must say that our group does NOT consider choreographers at the bottom of the list - they are absolutely treated the same way the directors and the music directors are treated (by the way - and they're paid the same).

I think you're just working with the wrong group.
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Nanette
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bullet Posted: 3/21/07 at 9:30am
Originally posted by dancingbarefoot

...of the three positions in a musical that spend the most time working in and outside of rehearsal (stage dir., musical dir., and choreographer), it seems to be the least valued and appreciated...
 
I'm sorry, but there are countless positions within the theatre that take up time inside and outside rehearsal ... many that take hours more time than the three you listed ... lighting and set design and construction (you're forgetting that they have to research and draw everything up to scale before they can even begin to do their work onstage), and costumers (it's not just about dressing up in pretty clothes ... they have research on styles and colors, drawings, fittings, etc.) just to name a few.  When was the last time you heard an audience member say how wonderful the lights looked or how well the costumes fit?
 
I, like some (but not all) am trained in this profession.  If I could have made a living off of it where I was living, I wouldn't have returned to school to "make a living". 
 
A community theatre is just that ... community!  And a community theatre that takes the best interest in producing quality theatre (rather than just dressing up and playing make-believe) is going to succeed.
 
Okay ... that's off my chest.  Sorry if I stepped on anyone's toes.  I don't mean to.  No one should be overlooked for their efforts is all I'm saying.
In a world of margarine, be butter!
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red diva
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bullet Posted: 3/21/07 at 8:03pm
Nanette,
While I agree with you that those positions you cited do indeed take a lot of time if pursued as thoroughly as they should be, I take exception to your statement that they take "hours more time than the three you listed".  As a long-time director (30+ years), I find myself a little hot under the collar that the assumption by many is that the director merely shows up at the auditions, casts the show, then sits back and directs without any prep work (though I have worked with a few that have done just that!).  I did a rough estimate just lately, and found that for every hour of time that I put in at a rehearsal, I have already put in 3 hours of prep, study, script analysis, blocking, character work, light and scenic planning, costume research, period research, and so on.  Though I don't actually design all of the tech areas I mentioned (though I usually create an overall design concept), I feel it's necessary to be prepared in those areas too, so that communication with the actual designers is facilitated, allowing for a unified creative picture.
 
I agree that no-one should be overlooked for their efforts, but I have often (maybe even usually) found that the director IS overlooked. Think about it honestly.....how many times have YOU (as a member of the cast or crew) ever walked up to a director after his/her  show has opened and said "thank you so much for your time and efforts"?  Yet the director is blasted if he/she neglects to thank every actor and "techie" (a term I use with great affection.  I have been a "techie" many times).  Maybe it's different in your theatres....I hope so.
 
Luckily, many of us that direct gain all the satisfaction we need from being able to watch the finished product and seeing how much the audiences are enjoying and appreciating the shows.   
 
Remember, if the show is good, the actors are given credit.  If the show bombs, the director gets the blame!
 
Have you hugged your director today?
"I've worked long and hard to earn the right to be called Diva!"
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dancingbarefoot
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bullet Posted: 3/22/07 at 3:00am
[QUOTE=Mike Polo]
I've never made any money doing community theater (25 yars and counting); it usually costs me money.

This is your choice, and I don't have a problem with donating time and money if you can.

I'm sorry you think you should be paid more,


I don't think I should be paid more, I think choreographers should be paid more fairly compared to other production positions.

At least ask for more money and if the offer isn't good enough, tell 'em "no".


I have no problem with the amount I'm offered at my current theatre - but it is still 1/2 of what both the musical director and stage director get. And if I personally couldn't do something for so little, I'd say no (or ask for more), just like any of the dance jobs that I've been hired to do.

As to the pay issue, well, nobody makes a living doing community theater.


You're right, but lots of theatres have made the dangerous jump to paying those involved. I'm questioning how MOST theatres have chosen to divide their stipends (not just for choreographers- although, other than as a volunteer actor, that's the job I know most intimately)- other jobs like costumers, lighting designers, etc. take away a very small portion of the pie while other positions take the lion's share. No one is making a living, but a few are taking away a lot more than others. I'm not trying to discount what directors do, but is it really worth 5-10 times more than some of these other positions? And if no one is thinking that choreography (for example) is a lesser-than job, why are they paid lesser-than?

If you are in a theatre where there is more balance, congrats, but the theatres I've worked with (including those where I haven't been on the production staff) this inbalance has existed (exception: when the pay for all is $0). And, come to think of it, in my experience the actors have always thanked the director (either with words or a gift) and all other production staff and crew generally go unthanked. Again, just my experience, but I find it hard to believe that my experiences have all been totally unique.

Sorry this has become some sort of debate, but I do think these are things that should be considered if a theatre plans to pay. And I want to stress that I'm happy to do what I do for community theatre. There were times when as a freelance choroegrapher I counted the work I did for CT's part of my income, but I too have donated my expertise when needed and if I could. Community theatres exist because of donation of time, but that's not really the point I've tried to make.
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dancingbarefoot
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bullet Posted: 3/22/07 at 3:09am
Originally posted by red diva

I did a rough estimate just lately, and found that for every hour of time that I put in at a rehearsal, I have already put in 3 hours of prep, study, script analysis, blocking, character work, light and scenic planning, costume research, period research, and so on. 


This is what I'm getting at.... I'll bet every one of the production staff does exactly that. But the pay rates that theatres have chosen reflect something different.
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red diva
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bullet Posted: 3/22/07 at 10:06am


This is what I'm getting at.... I'll bet every one of the production staff does exactly that. But the pay rates that theatres have chosen reflect something different.[/QUOTE]

First let me say that I am a proponent of no one being paid.  After all, community theatre, in my mind, is a volunteer organization.  No pay would  prevent all the hassles about who gets how much and who is "worth" more than the other.

Unfortunately, with exceptions (some of whom are on this board), much of the tech staff both in our theatre and in other theatres I've worked in do not research their areas for the show they are designing for. Thus you end up with basketballs from 2007 with an NBA franchise logo that are supposed to be from 1952 and costumes for the Victorian period that look like 1960's prom dresses. (No, Marty, I'm not referring to Cathy - she's one of  the good ones!)  No research has been done and there is an unwillingness to find ways to adapt modern props and costumes to the period. The response I usually get from these people when I point out the problems is "well, if the audience notices that, they aren't watching the actors".  I often end up altering or replacing inappropriate items on my own.

It sounds like the theatres you work in are lucky to have dedicated techies, willing to do the research and planning.  Other theatres are not that lucky, and in fact often have trouble finding someone willing to do the tech jobs.  When you have someone that will do the job just because no-one else will volunteer, you sometimes end up with careless and slipshod work.

Again, please note:  I am NOT condemning all tech staff in all theatres!  I've been there and done that in just about every area of tech and appreciate the hard work and time investment.  We have some terrific techies at our theatre.  I'm speaking from my own experience in my own theatre!



"I've worked long and hard to earn the right to be called Diva!"
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Shatcher
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bullet Posted: 3/22/07 at 10:55am
Boy people are worked upSmile. I have never been paid to SM a CT show(althought I belive the SM is the one person you want to keep happy as I could mess with your show pretty badly if I wanted to) Don't worry I was kidding. If I add up the hours I spend working on a show( this includes being first to the theatre every night and last to leave, hunting down props finding crew, and holding the production team together) I think it would come out to nearly the same amount of hours I spend at my full time day job.
 However everyone thinks they should be paid more in every job on the planet. It is part of life. I happen to think my day job needs to pay me more! I do CT for the love of my art not the love of $$. If I wanted to make it rich I would have studied something else.
I would think as a dancer you would get something in return for your hard work... new students for your classes or help with dance concerts... not to mention the chance to plug you dance classes to a captive crowd.
We are all over worked and under paid.  And a good number of us in get no adulation from the crowd for a job well done and when there is money to pay folks the Director,Music Director and the choregrapher are on the top of the list. SM most of the time on the bottom. Every group is different.
Just my 2 cents if it even makes sense
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