Babes in Toyland
Printed From: Community Theater Green Room
Category: Producing Theater
Forum Name: Play Suggestions
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URL: http://www.communitytheater.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3115
Printed Date: 5/02/24 at 5:51am
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Topic: Babes in Toyland
Posted By: landon2006
Subject: Babes in Toyland
Date Posted: 4/14/08 at 1:13am
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Hey guys! Our group has a question that I was hoping someone might be able to answer. The original musical opera "babes in Toyland" was first staged n 1903, but does anyone know if this work is in the public domain? I know things published before 1923 are in the public domain, but I can't find any information on how this applies to stage plays & musicals. I would think that it would be, seeing as how there are so many adaptions & film versions made, but then again, I could be wrong. Thanks, Landon |
Replies:
Posted By: JoeMc
Date Posted: 4/14/08 at 4:54am
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With public domain Dramatic works remain in copyright up to midnight 31st of December in the 70th year after the death of the author &/or when the works first became public, whichever is the later.
This could be a mine field if your looking at adaptions.
------------- [western] Gondawandaland "Hear the light & see the sound! TOI TOI CHOOKAS {may you always play to a full house!} |
Posted By: landon2006
Date Posted: 4/14/08 at 5:58am
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Thanks for the reply JoeMc, Our goal is to try and find the original book and score (which I am not having much luck with at the moment) and make our own adaption of it. Considering that in fact the work is in the Public domain, there should be no issues with an adaption made from the original material. I guess the question is: When was the book and score for the original published? I have looked around and can't find this information anywhere. Considering that they where published before the death of Herbert, which was 1924, then it would have entered Public domain no later than 1994. It's sure confusing though! Thanks, Landon ------------- |
Posted By: JoeMc
Date Posted: 4/14/08 at 7:57am
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1903 Operetta "Babes In Toyland" I have no idea on the death of Glen MacDonough? ------------- [western] Gondawandaland "Hear the light & see the sound! TOI TOI CHOOKAS {may you always play to a full house!} |
Posted By: jayzehr
Date Posted: 4/14/08 at 8:39am
| MacDonough died in 1924. Some of these songs are listed online as public domain Christmas songs and Herbert is listed online as a composer who is in the public domain, but I don't really know, that's just me surfing around. What version did you use when you directed it before, Landon? |
Posted By: landon2006
Date Posted: 4/14/08 at 11:24am
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Never directed Babes in toyland before. I have seen several productions, so I'm not sure if any where the original, since so many "Variations" have been made to the original over the last 100 years... We basically want to use the full original score, with several new songs and a slightly rewritten book and orchestration for our production. JoeMc: If this is indeed the publication date, then it is public domain in the U.S, at least for THIS version. I believe that Tams-Witmark has the original version, and it is the one they license out, although I could be wrong. I'm just wondering that since (and if) it is public domain, are they simply handling leasing of the books & script, or are the actively charging royalties on something in the public domain (which would not be a good thing). Anyway, Thanks for the help as always! Landon :-) ------------- |
Posted By: B-M-D
Date Posted: 4/14/08 at 12:19pm
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Anything published in the US prior to 1923 is in the public domain. Any derivative works based upon it are under copyright protection depending of course when they were published. The original work that these were based upon however remains in the public domain. ------------- BD 
"Dying is easy, comedy is hard." |
Posted By: JoeMc
Date Posted: 4/14/08 at 8:01pm
They have been doing this here for as long as I can remember.
It was only 50years, until little Jonny Howard our used to be Prime minister agreed to align with the US Free trade deal. [Thank gawd he was ousted & lost his seat as well.] This deal added 20 years to copyright. So nothing will come into the public domain until 2026, because of it.
However Publishers have always held that it was 70 years anyway & kept ripping groups off during that time.
Even with works that came under the 50years prior to 2006 & in the public domain, are still being charged the Copyright fee today.
The wombats here just keep paying fees & going thru the licence process for these public domain works. The Wally's!
------------- [western] Gondawandaland "Hear the light & see the sound! TOI TOI CHOOKAS {may you always play to a full house!} |
Posted By: jayzehr
Date Posted: 4/15/08 at 3:58am
Tams-Witmark appears to only license one version of the show and according to http://www.findaplay.com/findaplayresults.php3?isfilled=1&titleinput=babe - this site the authors are Cy Coleman, Michael Stewart and Mark Bramble so I would assume this must be an adaptation. It's got to be around somewhere but I looked for a long time online and I couldn't find anything that appeared to be the entire original score, just individual songs or selections in some libraries. For example, Indiana University has original sheet music for March of the Toys. |
Posted By: landon2006
Date Posted: 4/15/08 at 6:39am
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This is to weird. There are many knockoffs, yet the original seems to have disappeared. I'm wondering how all these people who wrote the adaptations was able to find the original score? Really the score is all we need. I know plenty of story to re-write the book into a story that makes a little more since than the original. I would just license one; but we really don't want to pay for something we don't have to. Also, If I re-write it and can license it out again and make even more money (don't you just love money?  ).Thanks! PS) I'm considering giving on this piece of work. We actually got the rights to a musical version of "A Little Princess" for tours now, but I don't know how much of an audience it would bring it (probably not much) and I'm trying to determine rather to green light the production, or put it on the back burner. ------------- |
Posted By: jayzehr
Date Posted: 4/15/08 at 7:17am
I'm sure it's out there somewhere. It's just not in anyone's financial interest to distribute something they can't make any money off of. Why don't you try someone from the music department at IU? I did see quite a few interesting songs in the public domain while I was surfing. With some imagination you could come up with an interesting royalty free musical revue. So, I guess you've abandoned your Annie project? |
Posted By: landon2006
Date Posted: 4/15/08 at 7:34am
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No, Annie is going to be our local production to raise money for our tour of Babes in Toyland. ------------- |
Posted By: jayzehr
Date Posted: 4/15/08 at 3:51pm
| Landon, I don't know much about musicals but it occurs to me that maybe something like You're a Good Man, Charlie Brown or Godspell might be easier for you to start out with if you don't have much experience producing musicals. You'd have a smaller cast, smaller set requirements, easier to costume, etc. while still having good name recognition. |
Posted By: landon2006
Date Posted: 4/15/08 at 4:15pm
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Jayzehr: I have experience in musicals, I've produced and directed several. There is actually two reasons we want to do Babes in Toyland. #1 is that it has name recognition, and it also has the ability to done very elaborately. #2 is that since we will be touring it around the large venues, we don't want to be stuck paying $4,000 per performance royalties to license houses. If we commission our own, we don't have to pay any royalties, and we can make extra money on licensing the rights, soundtracks, merch, etc. We are also currently in consideration of "A Little Princess" through Princess Musicals, but there we again have royalty issues as well as lack of rights. Also, since this is a very small musical without much in the way of a large name, we might have issues with filling the seats. ------------- |
Posted By: jayzehr
Date Posted: 4/16/08 at 8:14am
Reading your myspace page and what you've posted to this group leaves me pretty confused. Your plan is to use community theater volunteer labor to put on a show, then take the proceeds from that to finance a professional touring production? |
Posted By: landon2006
Date Posted: 4/16/08 at 10:44am
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Not technically, Annie will be a professional show as well, at least in theory. I guess the question where is what determines "Professional". We are not, and don't have intentions of going equity, but in all intents and purposes we have decided that everyone involved in our productions should be paid. Now this does not mean we hire only "professional" people, we have just taken the route of employing instead of volunteering. When we started the group we had no intention of paying anybody or going on tour... We were just wanting to start a Community Theater... This new turn in our company was brought on by the desire to branch out and serve more than just one community, as there are many communities across the state and America for that matter that don't have access to quality Theater. As for paying people, naturally if were going to pull them away from their jobs for days on end, money needs to be involved for them. Also, we are still considering rather Babes in Toyland is the one we want to go with or not. We currently have permission to tour "A Little Princess" which would be a much simpler production. I won't know till I bring up the contract for Princess at the next board meeting. ------------- |
Posted By: JoeMc
Date Posted: 4/16/08 at 12:20pm
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I know here there is a State & Federal minimum wage, arbitrated for the industry concerned. Which also covers workers compensation & impacts on all the other insurance concerned. Along with 4 weeks/year Holiday pay + 17.5%, 5 days public holidays & 6 days/year rostered days off. Also limited to 35 hours/week & that includes travelling time. First 4 hours over time is @ Time & a half, the balance @ double time. This is only the state basic wage & is not under the Arts, Media Alliance [equity] award.
We have a mandatory national health scheme, I'm sure you would have to pay for a premium price health insurance.
Here there are other things like, if the finale curtain falls beyond 11 PM, all shall be payed at the rate of double time for a minimum of 3 hours & if the employee does not have 12 hours break between shifts, is entitled to an extra weeks pay. Plus all meals & accommodation &/or a pedium/day
So I'm sure even if your not an equity company, you would come under some form of minimum wage & conditions liability. Unless it is a profit share & that's another kettle of fish?
I'm sure you would have thought about it & have insurance & safe guards in place?
------------- [western] Gondawandaland "Hear the light & see the sound! TOI TOI CHOOKAS {may you always play to a full house!} |
Posted By: landon2006
Date Posted: 4/16/08 at 1:24pm
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"So I'm sure even if your not an equity company, you would come under some form of minimum wage & conditions liability." Yes, even non-equity must abide by all federal and state employment laws, including minimum wage, which is currently $5.85 / Hour in Indiana as well as mandatory workers comp insurance. Under state or federal law, offering company health insurance and 401 (k) plans are all optional, especially if for non full time employees. As to min/max hours, etc... When not using union employee's you can ultimately work people as much as you want under what terms you want, with to provision of more than 40 hours per week is overtime @ 1 1/2 times pay by law. IATSE however has there own rules, and since most of the larger Theaters require using there labor (stage hands, flymen, riggers, etc) we will have to abide by there somewhat stricter laws concerning min. hours worked, max. hours worked, breaks, etc. Actors, Makeup & Wardrobe, SM's, PA's, etc are not union however, so only covered by state and federal labor laws. ------------- |
Posted By: JoeMc
Date Posted: 4/16/08 at 10:10pm
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That's great! So long as your covered if caught with your pants down!
Being a retired Justice, it never failed to amaze me, while sitting on the bench. The number of bods who believe they can make a contractual deal outside the law?
Here everyone that earns income pays 1.5% of their nett income, as a Medicare Tax Levy, unless they earn below the Tax Free thresh hold of about 10 grand/year. So there is no need for a provision to have hospital or medical insurance paid by the employer.
What is rather funny here is, the previous Federal Government spent $billions setting up 'Work place agreements' to side step the arbitration & union system award agreements. With a whole department assigned to oversee each individual agreement, between the boss & worker. They firmly believed that no employee could be bullied into signing, under the threat of loosing their jobs. Which was a political fantasy.
The new Labour government chucked the whole system in the bin & redeployed those in that department, to sharpen pencils elsewhere in other government employment. Which cost more $millions for everyone to go back to square one - all on the stroke of a pen!
There again one thing we have not got sorted out, is residual payments for participants in recorded performances, such as Film, TV, Video & whatever. Like other Countries - But that is on the horizon & not that far away!
------------- [western] Gondawandaland "Hear the light & see the sound! TOI TOI CHOOKAS {may you always play to a full house!} |
Posted By: jayzehr
Date Posted: 4/16/08 at 10:40pm
| Landon--There's nothing wrong with thinking big as long as you're being honest with everyone about your experience and knowledge. If you're thinking you might want to manage and produce touring shows that will play large venues my suggestion would be to first try and find a job in some capacity working for a company that actually does that so you can get some real world business and theater experience. If you're still in school, another option might be to get involved in theater productions at your college or university. |
Posted By: jayzehr
Date Posted: 4/17/08 at 6:55pm
Well, Landon seems to have had a busy couple of days. According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babes_in_Toyland:_The_New_Musical_%28musical%29 - this new wikipedia article since Tuesday he has apparently located the original score to Babes in Toyland, extensively rewritten the book and come up with some new original songs to boot. Another amazing community theater success story! 
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Posted By: landon2006
Date Posted: 4/17/08 at 7:26pm
 actually it says "is being rewritten by...". I have found several of the original (or reprints of the original) score and vocal book and I am currently making re-writting a new script based someone what on what I know of the original story and some of the Loral & Hardy film (which is public domain). One of the board members was able to get a local Composer on the project as well. However we are moving Babes to 2010, and in place of it we decided at the board meeting today that we are going to go through with A Little Princess on a statewide tour in late 2008 into 2009. The primary advantage to this is that #1 it can be done much cheaper than Babes, #2 it will allows us to build up relationships with some smaller Theaters (under 1,500 seats) in the state, as well as get us some much needed money to get on tour with Babes in 2010. We also decided that we are doing our tours from a base location, so as not to need everything up front. Today, I also have secured some dates at Theaters here in Indiana, and I'm still in talks with another 8 Theaters about available dates. So yeah, I have been pretty busy PS) It appears as though my Wikipedia artical is a candidate for deletion for some reason... Wikipedia never much liked me for some reason. ------------- |
Posted By: jayzehr
Date Posted: 4/17/08 at 9:33pm
No, it doesn't. It says "the book has been extensively rewritten by Landon D. Parks" or at least it did as of this afternoon. The article clearly describes the project as finished. By the way, where did you wind up finding the original score? |
Posted By: landon2006
Date Posted: 4/18/08 at 9:47am
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Oppps, I ment to write "is being" not "has been". Lesson why you should alway proof read something before you send it! Anyway, I found Toyland, March of the Toy Solders, Don't Cry, Bo-Peep, I Can't Do the Sum & Go to Sleep, Slumber Deep at the IU school of music library. Jason, one of our Board members has a friend who works in the Library of congress, and he is doing a check there for us to see what he can dig up. ------------- |
Posted By: landon2006
Date Posted: 4/18/08 at 12:03pm
"because you're making stuff up" Them's fightin words Jayzehr. There is no reason to make that up... If that was not in fact the truth, then I would not waste my time to create such an artical for no reason at all? I'm not stupid you know!  PS) Aren't we getting a little off the original topic here? Clearly this conversation will not get anyone anywhere, so lets end it here. ------------- |
Posted By: jayzehr
Date Posted: 4/18/08 at 1:06pm
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Your Myspace page says that "We produce and manage United States national tour's of famous Broadway musicals as well as new musicals and revues. Many of our productions are toured to cities all over America"
Is that true? You also claim on that website to make 250,000 dollars a year doing this. Is that true? Your previous Wikipedia article claimed you had once directed Babes in Toyland. You've admitted here that this isn't true. Your current Wikipedia article in its entirety reads: "Babes in Toyland: The New Musical is a brand new musical based on the original 1903 Babes in Toyland operetta. While this version keeps much of the story of the original, the book has been extensively rewritten by Landon D. Parks, to add more into the story. The new version resembles more of a modern Broadway musical than the original operetta while still keeping much of charm of the original. The new musical also contains brand new songs, to complement the remaining original Victor Herbert score. It also features several songs from the famed 1902 stage play version of The Wizard of Oz (1902 stage play) written by L. Frank Baum and various other composers." You've admitted here that this new musical does not exist yet, so this article cannot be true. You've also been banned from at least one movie production website for repeatedly telling lies about feature films you supposedly made. So, yes, you are making stuff up. |
Posted By: landon2006
Date Posted: 4/18/08 at 6:59pm
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Normally, I would not argue and just drop the subject, but your touching in some sensitive areas. #1: YES, that is the goal of the company to produce nationwide tours. Nowhere have I or any other members of the company stated that we "HAVE" produced such shows (that I am aware of anyway), just that its the goal of company to do so, and currently we have a national tour planned and in pre-production for 2009 (A Little Princess). So YES, we do produce national tours as is evident. #2: It's not "my myspace". I don't update it, thats up to John who is our Webmaster (who also maintains the website). I ocasionally might ad news or bulletins to the myspace, but I am not responsible for its creation and/or maintaining. #3: As to the Film thing... I got banned from Indietalk like 8 years ago because I got a little carried away with myself. I would NEVER say I lied about anything there, I did post some stuff that may have been a little bit "ahead" of it actually happening, but again, I was probably 13 or 14 at the time and not very mature on the facts. NOT that this pertains to anything to do with here, and I really don't appreciate you bringing up something very old and very uncalled for at this time. On top of that, I did end up directed 3 films, one of which could be considered feature length (78 min long). None of them ever got any distribution, but that was not my goal. #4: The Broadway Entertainment Company Inc. is a state registered Non-Profit company that is not only run by myself, but also a board of directors. It is not "my" company, and "I" alone do not make the decisions. The myspace page states our income at $250,000 per year because that is the highest that Myspace allows, and in fact our 2009 income (not profit) predictions are well over $800,000. Again though, I do not update the myspace page, and any concerns over that need to be handled by our Webmaster by e-mailing him at info@broadwaybloomington.org subject: Myspace Issue. #5: I never stated (at least I never ment to state anyway) that I had completed the project of Babes in Toyland. If I did make that assumption, it was by mistake. Currently, I have gotten 8 pages of the script complete and I talked with the composer today (Andrew John-Walker) about some new songs in which we want for the production. I have also complied 3 songs from the Broadway play "Wizard of Oz (1903)" into the proposed score. We have moved the tour to 2010 instead of 2009, but I really don't see much use in updated the Wiki artical if it is going to get deleted... So there is nothing in the Wiki artical that would be considered a lie. If you don't believe me, sorry. I am not going to release any scripts, scores, etc on Babes in Toyland until I have my copy of the script and any music score registered with the US Copyright office for protection. #6: I don't recall any articals about me having directed "Babes in toyland" before. Please alert me to such an artical so that I can verify such information. Any other issues you have? PS) We are about to release a list of our 2009 tour Cities, so check the website if "A Little Princess" will be coming near you. Keep in mind that as time draws closer, we will be adding more Theaters. ------------- |
Posted By: jayzehr
Date Posted: 4/19/08 at 3:24am
If you really believe that you have some serious language comprehension problems. You post on your site that "Many of our productions are toured to cities all over America" when in fact you have had no productions yet and nothing has been toured anywhere.
Your math skills are as poor as your reading and writing skills. You got banned from Indietalk no earlier than 2004. Some advice since that's why you supposedly are posting here: When you tell people that what you are imagining has actually already happened, i.e. when you get a "little bit ahead" of yourself, you are lying. And it really pisses people off.
Once again, Landon, 2009 HASN'T HAPPENED YET! You are stating what you are fantasizing will happen as present tense reality. It would certainly be considered a lie by any potential investors, donors, employees or theater managers foolish enough to enter into a contract with you based on this false statement.
Right. You're only the "executive director." Any problems with factual misrepresentations are somebody else's fault.
You made the assumption that you had completed the adaptation by mistake? Come again? Landon, re-read the wikipedia article you wrote. It describes in detail your version of the musical in the PRESENT TENSE when in reality IT DOES NOT EXIST YET. Do you not understand this distinction? How could you have done that "by mistake"?
Your deleted Wikipedia biography stated : "Landon D. Parks is a Musical Theater Director & Producer. He has Directed Musicals such as "Annie", "Les Miserables" and "Babes in Toyland." Wikipedia identified you as the author of that entry. Are you saying you did not post it?
You seem like an intelligent, imaginative kid. But it appears to me very likely that you are at least partially living in a fantasy world. We've all been there to some extent. I'm not sure how much of your own BS you actually believe so I guess one could argue you're not morally responsible. However, in retrospect it really bothers me that you've been posting here giving people advice about things that I now strongly suspect you have no real knowledge of. |
Posted By: JoeMc
Date Posted: 4/19/08 at 6:21am
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Thanks landon for initiating this interlude
 This reminds me of an old Geordie song;-
C...................Am..................
Whisht! lad, haad yor gob ...............F..................G7........... An' Aa'll tell ye 'n an aaful story, C....................Am................ Whisht! lad, haad yor gob, ...............F.........G7........C......... An' Aa'll tell ye 'boot the woorm. "It's best to have a firm grasp of the Lily, before attempting to gilt it?"
there is an old theatre addage that comes to mind, which may be rather apt old chap?
"If you want to suceed in this game - Get an agent & stop handling yourself!"
_______________________________
Bewdy Jay!
Interesting illumination on this mise en scene!
 ------------- [western] Gondawandaland "Hear the light & see the sound! TOI TOI CHOOKAS {may you always play to a full house!} |
Posted By: landon2006
Date Posted: 4/19/08 at 11:42am
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I'm not gong to argue with anyone here. I'm not going to answer any of your above questions because I'm sure it will only spark more argument. Believe me or not... DROP IT! This forum has gotten WAY off subject, and it's also gotten into my personal life, which I don't think needs to be displayed freely on a message board anywhere. You can either believe me or not, I don't really care one way or the other. But arguing about it is not the way to solve any issues, and clearly all that this topic is going to lead to is more argument. So please just drop it. Landon PS)I am not living in fantasy world. As I said, I do not own the company and I don't solely make decisions. When I stared the not for profit company, I did it with the intentions of starting a community Theater. However, clearly this has changed, and the change was not brought on by me. If you think the company is living in a fantasy world, thats fine, maybe it is??? DON'T BRING MY PERSONAL LIFE INTO IT THOUGH! ------------- |
Posted By: tristanrobin
Date Posted: 4/20/08 at 5:40pm
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well, this thread certainly degenerated, didn't it?! |
Posted By: paulrace
Date Posted: 5/20/08 at 1:07pm
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I've had the same question about "Babes." If you could get a copy of the original conductor's score you'd be in great shape. It's hard to say how much any of the "adapted" versions' scores are original and how much are upated. Often "arrangers" who want the royalties for a republished version will change the third note in the tenor line in the fourth measure, then claim the work is a derivative work they have the right to copyright as their own. In addition, the score MAY have changed as the script was rewritten, which has happened a lot to this piece.
The 1903 script itself was reprinted in 1999 or so. Search for ISBN # 0824953436 on Amazon, and you'll track it down. I understand that one reason the script is revised so often is that the original is really lame. Remember, in 1903, the purpose of dialogue was to get from one tune to the next, and BIT was largely popular because of the extravagant sets and costumes. . . . Hope this helps. Also, please let me know if you track down a "public domain" score. Thanks, Paul |