Wireless Mikes
Printed From: Community Theater Green Room
Category: Producing Theater
Forum Name: Lights and Sound
Forum Discription: Technical discussion
URL: http://www.communitytheater.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3048
Printed Date: 5/16/24 at 9:50pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 8.05 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Wireless Mikes
Posted By: landon2006
Subject: Wireless Mikes
Date Posted: 3/16/08 at 6:38pm
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I have a question that I need some help with... We are doing Annie here soon, and our cast is close to 50 people... We primarily want to Mike all of our actors (the ones that sing). However, we want to do a wireless option. I understand that UHF & VHF Mikes are expensive... but thats probably the way we are gonna go. The my question is this: How do we use upwards of 30 wireless mikes like this, with the differences in frequency... I thought we would just set all the mikes to the same frequency, but would this work? If not, how would you set 30 + different frequency's? Any help on this matter would be much appreciated! Thanks, Landon |
Replies:
Posted By: B-M-D
Date Posted: 3/21/08 at 4:20pm
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I suggest you ask whoever you rent or buy the mikes from how to do that. Your sound designer/ tech director/ and or other technical or board operators may need to be invovled in this as well. Not to mention that you'll need to get the music director into the mix at some point.
You might want to turn on/ off mikes as they are needed. This would need to be incorporated into your sound cues. With that many wireless mikes to manage you may want to have a dedicated tech person for just that. ------------- BD 
"Dying is easy, comedy is hard." |
Posted By: JoeMc
Date Posted: 3/21/08 at 8:38pm
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BDM is right on!
Landon with more than one or two radio mikes, your creating a nightmare for yourself & the production.
as suggested you will need a dedicated techie operator & tracking system. {exl is great for that] Possibly along with an ASM to manage & control the warers of them back stage.
Instead of the exspense of hiring a heap of them, check with the venue Head techie, as to the house acoustics & what they have in Chorus, Boundry & Shotgun mikes they normaly EQ the venue with. Or work on the cast projection training! ------------- [western] Gondawandaland "Hear the light & see the sound! TOI TOI CHOOKAS {may you always play to a full house!} |
Posted By: landon2006
Date Posted: 3/23/08 at 5:58pm
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I talked to the Tech Director at the Theater. My concern with no microphones is that the Orchestra is going to drown out the voice of most of the young performers. From what the tech guy said, he said buy 15 of the double wireless sets (which would make 30) and set each to a different frequency (They have a selection of 64). He said as long as you didn't have any outside interference (radio signals), that it would work just fine. I am aware of the difficulty of managing that many microphones at one time. I had planned in for a special sound asst. backstage as well as an ASM and an additional 2 wardrobe asst's to help out if needed. Mixing will be a fun job as well, but perfectly doable I would think. Since I'll be working with mostly untrained actors, under age 16, and only have 12 weeks to get it done in; I really don't want to get involved with projection. I had considered the "Wired mic's on stage", but this will create interference from both the Orchestra as well as other things on-set that we don't normally want to pickup. Actually, I found a good deal on Wireless sets. $240.00 for a double set. Means I only need $3,600 for them in total. Thank! ------------- |
Posted By: JoeMc
Date Posted: 3/23/08 at 10:37pm
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just as a thought Landon. with the mike sets, it may be in your interest to procure a set on aproval. Test check them with the venues 'head tech' that they are compatable with his Radio Reciever equipment.
Even they they may be packaged by as a known brand, they could be a 'knock off' made in China. There are a heap of electronic products that for all the world look like riddgydig gear, they are as useless as boobs on a bull. They have a short working life & no spares available, also if you try to have them serviced by the Propriaty Brand local manufactures service agent - all you recieve from them is laughter!
Just something to be wary of, before you shell out the brass! I'm sure the venue 'Ht' would assist you in this situation.
------------- [western] Gondawandaland "Hear the light & see the sound! TOI TOI CHOOKAS {may you always play to a full house!} |
Posted By: landon2006
Date Posted: 3/24/08 at 12:47pm
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The ones the Tech Director suggested (which he said he had seen used on over 10 other productions that came to the Theater) were the
Gemini UF2064L Dual Channel Wireless PLL System With 2 Lavaliere Mics. He said that for their inexpensive price, they are about the best out there (again, for the price). I was able to pull up several websites on them, and some pretty prominent places are selling them in the price range of $235 - $299.00. I'm hoping that they work fine, but I'm going to call the manufacturer and find out more info before I buy them. Thanks, ------------- |
Posted By: jayzehr
Date Posted: 3/24/08 at 4:43pm
Landon, I don't know how experienced you are so disregard me if needed  but my advice for a project such as you're describing is to try and simplify things for yourself as much as possible at every possible stage of the game. I've never directed with wireless mikes but have acted using them and I have to agree with Joe that with 30 you are potentially creating a nightmare for yourself especially with kids involved. Are you sure that you couldn't make it work with area miking?
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Posted By: JoeMc
Date Posted: 3/24/08 at 9:18pm
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I grew up in theatre, sure enough it was during the dark age, without using radio mikes or hardly any audio reinforcement!
A lot of shows I did generaly had upwards of 100 in the cast, that was when I was about 10. Latter on with casts upto 1000 by the time I was 16 or so.
Actualy radio mikes where not around, in fact mikes of any sort were a novelty.
It is surprising how the vioce will adjust with the size of the audiance or the cast.
When I was one of the urchins in Oliver back in the 60's. We had 3 casts of ragamuffins [orphans] that alternated for seperate shows. Which is all another story that would be as long as a novel.
I don't know maybe I'm just an old fart, but I think we are influanced by technoligy & pop music clips, to become lazy & not use our vioce capacity.
I was involved for a time at the advent of the 'Schools Eistedfords', where there was anything upto 100 in the cast of a dozen or so schools, for the finals.
All the tin lids [kids] wanted to wear the latest fashion radio mikes, they had seen performers on TV have stuck virtualy up thier noses & growing out of thier ears.
We had to have about 20 or so audio techs [ASM's] to marshal the radio mikes in different mike colour coding & number sequences, it nearly drove them bonkers.
However the worst of it was the teachers fiddling with the mikes & generaly being tottal wombats.
Sure this is an extreme case with a packed auditorium of screaming punters & at least the nioz boyz could control the levels needed to get over the top of the punters.
Honestly while it is a nice idea, i would restrict the radio mikes to only the Principal characters, as the chorus will step up to match them or attempt to get thier vioces over them.
I remember as a wee bloke at the Albert Hall, in amongest a cast of about 200, seeing & hearing myself on stage, from the 'Gods', during the opening number. Then realising half way thru the song, that I was not sitting in the gallery watching the show. that's when the hairs on the back of my neck stood straight up & a stange feeling came over me. Possibly if it was only one of being an twit?
[we had no mikes, but after all the acoustics there are almost next to none]
I have only experianced this a few times since, not as a performer, but a techie!
I'm sure your cast members will have respond in the same manner.
The only time I have used a radio mike in a show I directed, was because the leading lady, came down with a throat problem & I set her up with a radio mike. She spoke all the dialogue thru the mike & a young lass sang the songs for her, off stage via a hand held mike.
The audiance did not notice as the her vioce was always reinforced.
------------- [western] Gondawandaland "Hear the light & see the sound! TOI TOI CHOOKAS {may you always play to a full house!} |
Posted By: jayzehr
Date Posted: 3/24/08 at 10:45pm
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"I remember as a wee bloke at the Albert Hall, in amongest a cast of about 200, seeing & hearing myself on stage, from the 'Gods', during the opening number"
You mean you were on stage, but had the experience of visualizing it as the audience would see it? Jay |
Posted By: JoeMc
Date Posted: 3/25/08 at 2:03am
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Yes it is completly stupid, I was only about 11 or 12, going on to 32 at the time - yet I was not born premature? I was in the 'Gang Show', this was at the start of the 'Crest of a wave' number. The pipe organ started playing as all the 'gangsters' entered in lines onto the chorus rostrum. There was only about 4 bars intro, before you got into place & started to sing. On about the 64th when reality set in, I was doing the hand actions & singing my box of, looking out towards the audiance, trying to see myself sitting in the gods!. Unsure of what happend, but I kept smiling & singing like a nanna & starting to think could this be a dream or nightmare? Asking the bods next to me latter, did I stuff up at all/ they said no everything went great!It must of done because no one had a go at me for messing up!
------------- [western] Gondawandaland "Hear the light & see the sound! TOI TOI CHOOKAS {may you always play to a full house!} |
Posted By: jayzehr
Date Posted: 3/25/08 at 2:20am
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That's a great story! I had a very strange out of body experience on stage myself once. I wonder how many people this sort of thing happens to?
Jay |
Posted By: landon2006
Date Posted: 3/25/08 at 2:24am
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I have used boundary mics several times. I don't dislike them, but I have some issues with them. Since all of our upcoming shows will be musicals with dancing, etc we are concerned about picking up the hard foot steps on the stage as well as the Orchestra. Also, the last time I used them, I had issues where the actors kept falling out of range every time they would turn while singing or walked away from the edge of the stage. I had considered not using mics. But Proscenium Theaters are hard to project your voice in unless properly trained to do so. The Theater we use only has 500 seats, and the back of the house is probably no more than 50 feet from the stage... However, the stage is designed in such a way that the acoustics are pretty bad when trying to get your voice from one side of the proscenium to the other. I'm sure that we will have to use some kind of mike system, and I really like the idea of each person having their own mike, but I mainly want the sound to be of the highest quality possible. I have been trying to find out how they do it in professional Theater, but can't really find much information about it. To me, sound is probably the most important things. I can put up with less than great acting and singing... But only if I can actually hear it. I would rather use the Wireless because in the end, it's going to provide better sound than just mic's on the stage, with less interference and range problems. In the end, it might be more work to get it to work, but when it does work, I'm sure it will be worth the extra but of prep time and backstage help. PS) I just found a type of mic called Crown PCC-160... Has any ever used these? How well do they work? Thanks! ------------- |
Posted By: jayzehr
Date Posted: 3/25/08 at 4:21am
I think you're wrong about that. A properly designed proscenium theater helps maximize projection. |
Posted By: landon2006
Date Posted: 3/25/08 at 6:14am
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Really? Since the area entering the audience is small than the stage itself, a great deal of sound is naturally going to be lost in the fly space & wings. Of course, if you have a Proscenium Theater that is designed good, with sound bouncers installed that help deflect sound from those unwanted areas into the audience, then great. Thats NOT the case at the Theater we use. Also, if we decide to do our shows at the IU Auditorium (3,157 seats), then some sort of Mic system is going to be required for all actors, as projection would be not impossible, but difficult for all but the most trained actors, which we usually don't have access too. Thats from my experience anyway. Maybe I'm wrong though. ------------- |
Posted By: jayzehr
Date Posted: 3/25/08 at 7:52am
| Just out of curiosity, Landon, how did you handle sound when you directed Annie before? |
Posted By: JoeMc
Date Posted: 3/25/08 at 7:59am
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Not being a niose waller, i can't realy help with type of mike you found.
All I know is all venues are different & have their own individual audio quirks & conditions.
I have found proscenium stages can be very much like an outdoor music shell. Also dependant upon the auditorium material used in the fabric of the walls, wether the sounds bounces or not.
Some of the older Edwardian theatres have the good old dead spots, usualy in th Stalls, while up in the Gods is generaly the better area to hear a show, visualy not so go though. A lot of the Pidgeon Holes & Juliets [ashtrays] usualy have a lot of audio & visual problems. There again they were never designed so much to see or hear the show, but for one to be seen at the show & indulge in the royal wave & whatever?
A few of the more moden venues, where the architec has used an acoustic engineer [which is a rarety] are very good, without reinforcement.
But they tend to do a short cut & instal a heap of audio arrays to compensate.
Normally I check out the acoustics in a space by standing centre stage & giving loud claps. This usualy will tell if the rear house wall bounces or absorbes the niose. Sound bounce is a drama & absorbtion is a good sign.
This is done with all boards, legs & cyc in or with a full set on deck & fly pack.
Not very sientific, but a good rule of the black thumb nail!
Also things that can be done in auditoriums or comeatres is to hang house clouds {[suspended cieling panels], either flat or on an angle], drapes around the walls or walls of wooden strip decorative battens.
surprisingly enough sound from the stage is not lost that much into the fly loft, unless it is empty of course., which is rare.
Normally a pit orchestra will not drown out vocalists, because the sound sorce is below the stage level & controlled by a Conductor. One of the biggest hiccups is for those on stage, untill they have some experiance being acompanied by a full orchestra.
this is one of the advantages of a procenium stage,the pit is not a wall of sound to get thru.
Jay the OoBE might make a good topic?
I for one think it is a myth & I'm a little sceptical & think it is all rather a bit of 'my eye & mary martin. Although I do weird things by following theatre superstitions at times.
I'm sure people have had such things, but I don't believe I have actualy had them, just I must have been' & actualy off in a day dream. Which now at my age I can put down to a seniors moment!
 ------------- [western] Gondawandaland "Hear the light & see the sound! TOI TOI CHOOKAS {may you always play to a full house!} |
Posted By: jayzehr
Date Posted: 3/25/08 at 2:27pm
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Well, I'm not a "noise waller" either Just going by fuzzy college memories. I guess I should rephrase that: when one says "proscenium theaters are hard to project your voice in" my question is "compared to what"? Doesn't a proscenium theater in general allow for the greatest distance from stage to audience?
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Posted By: landon2006
Date Posted: 3/25/08 at 4:03pm
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In the Community Theater I came from before starting this one, we used various different ways of getting sound. The last time I directed Annie (1 1/2 years ago) we used a mixture of Floor mics & Hanging mics (with major issues on actors going out of range). The other time I directed Annie (I've directed it twice) we didn't use any mics. HOWEVER, the "Theater" we were using then did not need mics, because it was so small (It was not really a Theater even). On Several other occasions we just used Floor mics (not the ones designed for such, just regular mics mounted on the floor), with very poor results. The reason I'm so concerned about sound now is that I have never worked in a Theater as large as what we are probably going to be working in. PS) The Orchestra "Pit", is not really a pit. The stage is elevated 3 foot and the "Orchestra Area" sits at the base of the stage, at the same level as the audience. Which I think is a pretty poor design, but thats just me. We might still get to use the larger Theater though... I have meeting with them in a few weeks to see what we can work out. In which case we upgrade from the current 33' W x 16' D x 20' H Pros. with an 8' Fly space and no real orchestra pit to a fully equipped Theater with full Fly space, 100' Wide stage (55' within proscenium) which is also 40' D and 25' H at the Proscenium. Not to mention, they have a REAL orchestra pit. Thanks ------------- |
Posted By: JoeMc
Date Posted: 3/26/08 at 7:05pm
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I have always found proscenium arch stages are acoustical better than these converted gymeatres or theatoriums, they put up. Our comeatre which was built in 1925, as a war memorial community hall. Had great acoustic qualities although it was built by volunteers on a disused lime stone quarry & kiln.
it was amazing as it only took them 3 years, even though they had to use only muscle power & horses, to drag the building materials thru the sand dunes, no roads as such.
Yet with all the modern machines & technology it has taken longer to refurbish it.
The auditorium ceiling was in fact covered in carpet, with the backing stuck to the plater sheets. Also the rear wall was done in hand made clay bricks.
Now the architect has gyp rocked the wall & treated the ceiling, stuffing up the acoustics & painting the auditorium in an ivory colour, which won't help lighting shows.
Here is a pick of what it looked like, before they messed about with it;-
They have retained the original hall, which was only the width of the portico on the front. Knocking down the extensions, built by the council back in the 40's.
Now it is finished, it looks like 'Lego land'l As it has a round 100 square metre, art gallery, stuck on to the hall. that we have dubbed the' water tank'. Also with 3 square block buildings at the rear, which are the dressing & green rooms. all these satellite extra buildings are painted in different primary colours of red, blue & yellow.
Sure enough he left the plaster ceiling over the stage & refuses to remove it. stating it is 'Heritage', as I told him it can't be Heritage listed until 2025, so we have got about 7 years to remove it.
But it is a waste of time talking to him, we have nick named him the 'Dafto'dill -Lilly Man', after Bunthorne from G&S 'Patience', as he gives me a mental picture of him prancing about the lawns, with his ladies of the acetic movement.
we can't wait to re-modify it into a workable space again.
------------- [western] Gondawandaland "Hear the light & see the sound! TOI TOI CHOOKAS {may you always play to a full house!} |
Posted By: JoeMc
Date Posted: 3/28/08 at 10:54am
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There is a point you will have to consider - Consumables! You will probably use a 9 volt batteries per radio mike/performance. So see if you can do a promo deal with a battery distributor? Don't rely on the venue, as they will charge you possibly more than the normal retail price. Stay away from discount shops generic batteries in a pack. Always use a fresh battery/performance, which includes Dress & tech runs. Also check out the venue hire/rental agreement for incidental charges for performance extras, such as special colour gel usage or whatever.
Further find an experienced SM &/or PM, along with your own Lighting/audio designer/techie, to do all the technical planning, along with supervision of the Bump In/Out.
Use an order system for everything to with the production & venue, with the usual disclaimers & riders, such as 'no order - no pay' provisions. In fact get a good admin manager & don't attempt to handle it your self.
One of the biggest & contentious problems when dealing with a Rent House venue, is what you the group gets, after the venue takes their charges, fees & loadings. Out of the box returns before they write the groups cheque, at the wash up!
Avoid doing any private treaty, with the in house techies, to design the audio &/or Lighting. Invariably you will wind up with, is not not much more than the bog standard venue EQ & a the basic 4 colour wash lighting rig, with a few specials thrown in. Which your paying for in the venue hire anyway! They will also charge the production for returning the space back to it's standard rig, which in my experience never happens.
But these are some of the lurks & perks they get up to, if your group is not on their metal.
Remember they have the whip hand, because they hold on to the money, usually from 7 to 30 days, after the season.
However the group can with a number of venues, get an advance, usually up to 10% of the box office after a performance, under certain conditions. So get an Accountant on board as well!
Remember this game, by decree, is fraught with rouges & vagabonds.
 ------------- [western] Gondawandaland "Hear the light & see the sound! TOI TOI CHOOKAS {may you always play to a full house!} |
Posted By: landon2006
Date Posted: 3/28/08 at 5:12pm
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The battery promo is a good idea. never though of that. Thanks. Also, The venue we rent includes in with the rental all their lighting, dimmers, gels, and sound equipment (mixers, limited # of mics, etc). However, we have our own lighting truss, lights, dimmers, computerized control system, sound mixer, etc already, so we won't be making use of the Theaters in-house system. Labor: The Buskirk Chumley Theater is a union facility, and we must have at least 1 union tech on-site at all time. In total, he will end up costing around $250 per performance. As to the Box Office: The Buskirk Chumley Theater keeps all Box Office up to 30 days after the event, in which case they subtract their rental fee's and labor charges. In the end, even at a 1/2 house we will still be up $5,000 per performance after they take their $1,100 per day rental fee, $50 ticket printing fee and $350 union tech fee. We then pay out techs and musicians out of that and in the end, receive about $3,200.00 for each performance. When all is said and done though, for us, renting the Theater is cheaper than if we owned our own. ------------- |
Posted By: bmiller025
Date Posted: 4/05/08 at 5:09pm
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It is common and pretty much necessary when using wireless microphones that each microphone have its own separate input channel on a mixing board. This way, the sound level generated by each microphone can be adjusted individually, to account for variations in how loud each singer is, microphone placement on their body, etc. You will need an expert sound engineer or two to operate that many microphones, and a pretty huge sound board as well.
You described microphones that seem to share channels for transmission to the control booth. I would be very cautious if you are combining two microphones for each received input to the board. What happens when one performer has a really big voice, and the second has much less output? What happens when someone's costume is interfering with the microphone, and their "signal-mate" has a solo coming up? You can completely take out the noise generated by the costume, but you will lose the soloist as well. ------------- http://www.brianmiller.biz/BrianDesign.htm |