Do you tape your performances?
Printed From: Community Theater Green Room
Category: About the Community Theater Green Room
Forum Name: Polls
Forum Discription: Registered members can create polls of their own and vote in posted polls.
URL: http://www.communitytheater.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2085
Printed Date: 4/23/24 at 8:08pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 8.05 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Do you tape your performances?
Posted By: Nanette
Subject: Do you tape your performances?
Date Posted: 10/22/06 at 7:42am
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come on ... be honest! We all know it's taboo, and it's all on our minds when we hit that print button on the copy machine or the record button on the tape/dvd recorder. Do you film your performances? When you don't have enough scripts, do you make copies? How about taping recorded music so your actors can practice at home? I WILL be filming our play this winter. I've given up a lot of time to produce this and would like a memory of it. I'm not selling it on the black market, for goodness sake. Besides, it's the only way these kids will be able to see how they did. ------------- In a world of margarine, be butter! |
Replies:
Posted By: GoldCanyonLady
Date Posted: 10/22/06 at 11:08am
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We are not a big community theatre, but we put on great plays and we have them professionally recorded so that we (the actors) have a copy. We do not sell them. Our theatre pays for the taping (expensive) and puts one copy in our library, the rest we actors buy for us and for our families who live far away. And we don't feel guilty about it. We do not copy scripts though. ------------- Barb Hofmeister, MountainBrook Village Players, Gold Canyon, Arizona. |
Posted By: B-M-D
Date Posted: 10/22/06 at 5:58pm
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Just be prepared to tell that to the judge and throw yourself upon the mercy of the court. I won't even begin to tell you about all the copyright violations that come into play here. Luckily I don't think most publishers are too concerned about "archival" or personal use. Not much of a market for all those famous ct perfomances of You Can't Take it With You. They're more concerned about organizations paying for performance rights and not having dialog changed or gender switching of characters. ------------- BD 
"Dying is easy, comedy is hard." |
Posted By: Gaafa
Date Posted: 10/22/06 at 9:28pm
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I have sat on the bench of the court, as a Justice. Listening to
excuses in response to a summons for this type of copyright breach. I agree with DMB it is not a nice sight watching a defendant squirm & respond, to why they should not be charge with the breach. I assure you no matter how original or plausible your excuse is, the Magistrates hands are tied & has to rule in favour of the plaintiff. I?m sure most copyright agents could give you a vast list of excuses that have failed miserably in litigation. You could be lucky, but I?d suggest you to save money & just pay the fine. As you have two chances [?None & Buckley?s?] & yours isn?t one of them! ------------- Joe Western Gondawandaland turn right @ Perth. Hear the light & see the sound. Toi Toi Toi Chookas {{"chook [chicken] it is"} May you always play to a full house} |
Posted By: EddyZ
Date Posted: 10/23/06 at 9:59am
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Most places I know of tape shows, I'm personally opposed to the
practice, but usually get labelled as a heartless bastard when I try to
explain copyright to people who should know better, but always whine
and cry about commercialization, capitalism and the author's right to
make a buck. I'm half-tempted to buy a stack of Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged
and start handing it out to people whenever they bitch about "making
money" on the backs of us poor community theatres (or whenever they
bitch about Wal-Mart, never mind that that's where we buy a ton of
materials for our shows, and we get it there cheaper than anywhere else
because Wal-Mart is *good* at what they do. But, I digress.), but
I don't think that would go over very well. Ah well.
------------- EddyZ http://webpages.atlanticbb.net/~ezahurak/ - http://webpages.atlanticbb.net/~ezahurak/ http://www.nailsouptheatre.com - www.nailsouptheatre.com/ |
Posted By: suzecue1
Date Posted: 10/24/06 at 10:41am
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Thanks Nanette - this is a hot post! I am looking over my shoulder just writing my reply! From the results of the poll, I would say that more of us do than don't. The contracts we sign are specific. NO videotaping, NO copying of music or scripts, some won't even allow flash photography. They even tell you how big to print the writers name (no less than 50%)under the title. I personally think that they just want to make sure you have paid the royalties for all your shows, and in the correct amount based on number of expected patrons. Personally, I think those figures should wait for (and your royalties should be based on) post show actual figures. Then maybe they would get more money, and not care so much about our little "just for the memory of it" show videos. Another big gripe of mine is the NO copying statement. When have you EVER received enough scripts for the ensemble in any large musical? If you want them to learn the songs, you have to make copies. Duh! What about the stage manager(s) and tech booth. What do they write all there messy cues in? A real script? I don't think so, but who's script can they use? It has to be a copied script, hopefully in bigger print to be able to see in the minimal lighting.
Don't get me wrong. I fill in my contract honestly. I pay for all my shows, I base my numbers on actual seats sold the same type show (same time) the year before. I am a BIG rule follower. I don't speed. I don't smoke. I don't lie. Well, not often anyway, but I do like a copy of my shows.
------------- Sue ***** So many hats.....so few heads! |
Posted By: falstaff29
Date Posted: 10/25/06 at 1:04am
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Well, I do speed, don't smoke, but drink a lot (don't all theater
people, though?), curse a lot, have been known to download music back
in the day, am generally a dissolute character, but always pay for
rights, and follow MOST of what they say (don't change lines or
genders, try to stick to how they want stuff advertised). I don't
think videotaping a show should be a big deal, and I've never known
anyone who's gotten in trouble, but I personally don't like to do it,
just because I'm one of those actors who hates seeing his own
work. The result usually isn't that great, anyway. To cut
down on heads getting in the way, they always tape the show where
nobody's there, so the energy and laughs are always lacking....
It seems they always capture the one not-so-hot performance. |
Posted By: JShieldsIowa
Date Posted: 11/15/06 at 12:57am
| Actually, 2 of the theatres I work with in my area have been "turned in" for taping performance. While I was on the board of directors during one of the instances it was a written letter asking us to destroy any tapes and reminding us of the copyright laws. The biggest issue the royalty house made (I believe it was Tams Witmark) was that they were told the tapes were being sold. None of the theatres encourage taping shows, but it is widely practiced and now if a show is recorded there is never any money that changes hands. Just possibly replacement tapes. I don't think that would save us if we were fined, but still a little better. The other theatre supposedly got fined, but I'm not sure if that is true or just a cautionary tale to directors trying to discourage the practice. Of course the question on everyone's minds was "how would they find out?" Turns out we had an informant in our mutal circle of theatre folk who would turn in the community theatres when she was mad at them for not giving her shows, etc (she's quite psycho). She was also the one who turned in the theatres for "fire code" violations (ie., too many extension cords). The fire marshall shut down a show I was directing on OPENING NIGHT because a "concerned patron called with concerns". We found out it was her because she had 2 teenage kids who obviously couldn't keep the family secrets to themselves! |
Posted By: Holly
Date Posted: 2/02/07 at 12:32am
| Our theatre company usually tapes the performances, though a good percentage of ours are plays written by company members anyway, so obviously getting permission to tape them isn't generally an issue. |
Posted By: ilove2act
Date Posted: 5/30/07 at 9:46am
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I guess I'm lucky...I found a professional videographer that doesn't charge us a dime.He tapes the show during our final Tech rehearsal, then does close ups on our first night.Mixes the two together and only charges for the cost of the CD. It's our way of having memoriabilia and his way of getting profit business of weddings and company promo video by the quality of his work. ------------- ilove2act |
Posted By: trutter
Date Posted: 5/30/07 at 12:08pm
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what about the taping rule for high school musical? Apparently you can buy a video license for $75... and YOU, the theater, can make a copy for "archival" purposes and then sell it to the cast. For $75, that really isn't bad - especially for a "scrapbook" production like HSM. I just worry that some bloke (No, im not British) will take it to public access and ask them to play it. Should we make people sign slips that say they wont copy, etc etc? Im dreading the "curtain announcement" about no videotaping, as Im sure there will be 1 or 2 a night that will try and sneak a camera in. ------------- ------ Troy A. Rutter Author, "Kids in the Biz: A Hollywood Handbook for Parents" http://www.kidsinthebiz.com/ - http://www.kidsinthebiz.com/ A Heinemann Drama Publication |
Posted By: tdsands
Date Posted: 6/11/07 at 8:13pm
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We usually tape a production at the request of the Actors and it is just for the Actors and Director.
(Too bad some of the Actors can't see their performance BEFORE an audience does!)  ------------- tdsands @ NRT |
Posted By: jungle16jim
Date Posted: 8/21/08 at 12:07pm
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This has recently been a huge issue with our group. Over the years, we've waffled back and forth on this, but since I am a professional video producer, it made me very nervous from a business perspective and from theater perspective.
Because there ARE people out there who are crazed or malicious, there always is the possibility of being turned in. Particularly in the era of Youtube, it's far too easy for actors to take the copy and put it up on the web with the name of the theater company. What does disturb me is how angry people get over this issue. I just had a 30 minute argument with a sounds operator over this--after explaining to the cast and crew that we do not permit videotaping. I've had dear friends get in my face because I had to deliver this message to them. I had one actor get the show videotaped on the sly and put it up on the web. I realize these are nice to have and to do hours of navel-gazing for years to come, but aside from the legal ramifications, the quality of most of these tapings is quite poor. Methinks that memory would be a better (and more forgiving) keepsake of the event. |
Posted By: whitebat
Date Posted: 8/21/08 at 6:03pm
| Out of the last 4 regular shows we did (and taped) only one tape was of any quality. One play, the author was a local who had died and left no children, so I'm not sure where that left the copyright. The others were blatant violations, I guess. Yes, we've photocopied scripts and dubbed audios too (not recently on the audios, when I was in HS plays). I think the archival license probably allows you to make one (1) copy only, and you can show it for "educational purposes". |
Posted By: skoehler
Date Posted: 8/22/08 at 11:29am
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Several shows do offer a video license, but read them carefully. The High School Musical License reads "...granting licensee permission to make ONE video recording of Licensee's production of the play entitled Disney's High School Musical" and also "ANY VIDEO RECORDING MADE OF THIS PERFORMANCE IS AUTHORIZED FOR PERSONAL AT-HOME, NON-COMMERCIAL USE ONLY. THE SALE OR DISTRIBUTION OF SUCH RECORDING IS STRICTLY PROHIBITED UNDER FEDERAL COPYRIGHT LAW". Pretty clear to me, you can make one copy and one copy only and you most certainly CANNOT sell copies to your cast. It shouldn't matter if it is something that you can get in trouble for, it is the law. And although the publishing companies make the most profit on these laws, the playwright's work is also being protected. Most playwrights are struggling artists, and to make money (selling copies to cast and crew) on their work while they receive nothing is not only illegal, it is also immoral and unethical. I have very little patience on this issue. The taking of pictures is usually more of an issue for local artists. The work of the designers and directors is also protected by copyright law and their permission should be acquired for pictures. This is rarely an issue on a CT level, but on the professional level lawsuits are happening based on theft of intellectual property, so cover you butt, have them sign a contract giving the theatre permission to photo. ------------- Steven Koehler Managing Director Civic Theatre of Greater Lafayette www.lafayettecivic.org |
Posted By: trutter
Date Posted: 8/22/08 at 4:28pm
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The problem we are having is that lately actors have been "demanding" to videotape. "But I have (grandparents, cousins, uncles, brothers, sisters) who can't come! Its not fair!!!!! They just dont seem to understand that EVERYBODY has SOMEBODY who cant be to a show.. its just the way it is. ------------- ------ Troy A. Rutter Author, "Kids in the Biz: A Hollywood Handbook for Parents" http://www.kidsinthebiz.com/ - http://www.kidsinthebiz.com/ A Heinemann Drama Publication |
Posted By: skoehler
Date Posted: 8/22/08 at 4:35pm
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One of the best things about theatre that it is a temporary art, only exisiting in a single moment in time, eveery performance is different and all that. Letting people see the show only through video is a disservice to the show (we all know that even when done professionally live theatre never works well on video) the audience, the art and of course the playwrights who supposed to be getting paid for their work. Also someone earlier asked why publishers get all the money up front as opposed to taking their fee based on actual tickets. The truth is that for professional contract they do take a percentage of the box office, usually around 10%, I have seen as low as 7 or 8 and as high as 12%. ------------- Steven Koehler Managing Director Civic Theatre of Greater Lafayette www.lafayettecivic.org |
Posted By: stageman 2
Date Posted: 8/22/08 at 6:34pm
We VCR'd our shows for years until some stories shared at an AACT conference
scared the crap out of me. I came back from the conference and put the
hammer to the taping. I believe the practice should be allowed as it is
the only way an actor can actually see the show, as long as there is no
selling or public showing of the recording and we have had some fun evenings reliving the past, but have to admit I don't
want to have the legal validity of the copy right rules tested under my term of leadership. Even though the chance of being caught is slight, I don't feel I want to take the chance. 
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Posted By: tdsands
Date Posted: 8/23/08 at 12:47pm
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We keep talking about being fined for taping a show. Does anyone know what the fine is? ------------- tdsands @ NRT |
Posted By: stageman 2
Date Posted: 8/23/08 at 1:14pm
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No one spoke in specifics about the legal penalties. We were told that the publishing companies could blackball you, making it impossible to purchase scripts and/or get the production rights to the shows they licensed.
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Posted By: Goldberry
Date Posted: 11/05/08 at 1:04pm
| I tape as many of my shows as I can, just for posterity. |
Posted By: Scott B
Date Posted: 11/06/08 at 12:19am
How many are taping? Well ... anytime I want to know about a show and take a peek at some video, I just head for youtube. Heck ... I think you can almost watch all of Wicked.  Seriously ... I can not even imagine what I would pay today to see the shows I did in high school. I think something is seriously wrong when an actor cannot have a copy of their performance. 
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Posted By: stageman 2
Date Posted: 11/06/08 at 7:28am
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My question is still what the ramifications would be to the community theater that was caught. I was told it could result in a blackballing effect from the publishing companies.
------------- Les Liss Fine Arts, County of Effingham info@effinghamface.com www.effinghamface.com Always be yourself because the ones that matter don't care and the ones that care don't matter. |
Posted By: JoeMc
Date Posted: 11/06/08 at 8:56am
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Not that I have been in the situation. But from memory, the groups concerned were doled out an in house breach fine, which could either be paid, show just cause or they would take court action.
Invariably the theatre group paid up & were probably put on a blacklist as well?
One I know of got done allegedly for $20 grand, because they changed the the Overture music for 'Oliver', it happened in a country town here in the bush. But the Rights Holder found out & gave them the option.
Another venue up north, had to pay out a fine, because the punters took picture during a show & they had not warned the audience with signage or an announcement about recording the show. Not that it stops the punters, but the venue was found to be vicariously liable & forced to pay up.
These are a couple of instances, but with APRA [ASCAP in your currency] they knock off regularly a Hairdressers shop, for playing music on the radio. Or a venue for playing recorded interval music &/or whoever that takes their fancy. They usually get about a $2000 fine in court, which makes the local news media. But it spreads the message & becomes a wake up call.
I believe from the grape vine, some schools & institutions on Youtube may be for a shock, in the not too distant future. Lets face it the copyright Association would only need to knock a few off every now & then, but for some reason they are sitting on their hands. Probably waiting for some game rights holder, scoring a few convictions first, before they proceed? ------------- [western] Gondawandaland "Hear the light & see the sound! TOI TOI CHOOKAS {may you always play to a full house!} |
Posted By: stageman 2
Date Posted: 11/06/08 at 10:49am
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It surprised me that according to the poll, so many theaters were still recording. We stopped completely, deciding to heed the warnings. We subscribe to ASCAP to cover our walk-in and intermission music but the play itself is off limits to recording. I have to admit, when I saw the poll figures, I found myself considering resuming taping but I still feel, as much as I think that recording for non-sale distribution to the cast and for archiving, should be allowed, it's just not worth the risk. Rules after all, are rules.
------------- Les Liss Fine Arts, County of Effingham info@effinghamface.com www.effinghamface.com Always be yourself because the ones that matter don't care and the ones that care don't matter. |
Posted By: clee
Date Posted: 10/25/10 at 2:18pm
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We do tape, although as a director I sometimes "forget" so that I don't have to explain to the cast why we can't do it. Interestinly, the rights to South Pacific last year specifically included the rights to tape and to give each cast member a copy. Our children's troupe looks for shows which permit taping and the selling of the copies. ------------- Clay |
Posted By: poindexter05
Date Posted: 10/25/10 at 9:34pm
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We are still hearing about theater's taping shows. We stopped a few years ago after several very enlightening round-table discussions at AACT conferences. The penalties definitely aren't worth the risk.
------------- Always be yourself. The ones that matter don't mind and the ones that mind don't matter. |
Posted By: dboris
Date Posted: 10/26/10 at 1:05pm
I have to second this opinion. Since most shows can only be licensed from one particular company, theatre's really can't afford to get on thier bad side.
Dan
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Posted By: suejvin
Date Posted: 10/28/10 at 2:09pm
Taping illegally is one thing. Why would anyone then post it on YouTube? Aren't you just asking to be caught? That amazes me! |
Posted By: museav
Date Posted: 12/06/10 at 2:59pm
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According to Title 17 of the US Code, "The copyright owner is entitled to recover the actual damages suffered by him or her as a result of the infringement, and any profits of the infringer that are attributable to the infringement and are not taken into account in computing the actual damages." Alternatively, the copyright Owner may apparently settle for Statutory damages of between $750 and $30,000 before a ruling is made. If the copyright owner sustains burden of proof and the infringement is found to be willful, it seems that the Court may then expand the Statutory damages range to $200 to $150,000. Add to that any Attorney's fees or costs incurred by the copyright owner in pursuing the infringement. There are also some situation where copyright violation may be considered a criminal offense, although those are intended primarily to deal with actions such as distributing movies or software.
Another possible consideration is that apparently civil claims can be commenced up to three years after the claim accrued. The risk there is that an infringement could cause the licensing or other parties to look at the past three years for other potential infringements. One would assume that the license holders and courts might look differently at a one time offense versus someone shown to be a habitual offender. ------------- Brad W. |
Posted By: museav
Date Posted: 12/06/10 at 3:09pm
------------- Brad W. |
Posted By: Tired_Yeti
Date Posted: 4/12/11 at 1:36am
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Hi all!
New member here! I just joined today. Glad I found this forum.
Our theater pays for the scripts and music. We have a professional videographer come in and make a DVD of one show so the cast and theater can have a copy. The downside for me is that usually the DVD isn't available until the run is over so I never get to critique myself and improve my delivery in the show through watching myself perform. I assume the theater keeps a DVD for archive purposes. In the past, the theater asked for $10 from each actor for their DVD (to cover costs of production); however, I don't think they try to enforce that. One show I was in, all the actors refused to buy the DVD. I was the only actor who got a DVD but I managed to negotiate getting it free.
I don't see anything wrong with filming a performance if the DVDs aren't sold. The theater pays for the scripts, rights, music, etc. and the actors, director, stage manager and everyone else puts in a great deal of effort to make a good show. Seems only resonable that we'd get to take a souvenire home. I don't see a problem with putting in on YouTube for that matter either; although, I never have. YouTube doesn't charge anyone to see the videos and seeing a video on YouTube isn't a substitute for going to the theater. I've never met anyone who told me they weren't going to a show because they'd already seen it on YouTube.
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Posted By: skoehler
Date Posted: 4/12/11 at 8:44am
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It is entirely possible that the laws will change over the course of the next decade or so, but for now it is not a question of making money or charging for videos. It is a matter of legality.
The fact is that the contracts you sign expressly forbid the video recording of the show. To ignore that is (on paper at least) no different than ignoring any other law. The publishing house usually does not own the video rights, so do not blame them. the world has changed, and in many ways these current laws are a little obsolete, but they are for now the law. Work to change the laws, don't just ignore them. This is not a matter of resisting a bad law, this is an example of blatant disregard for the law. ------------- Steven Koehler Managing Director Civic Theatre of Greater Lafayette www.lafayettecivic.org |
Posted By: JoeMc
Date Posted: 4/13/11 at 12:29am
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Welcome 'Tired yeti!'
 Me thinks your attempting to push it hill with your nose!
Your mob only paid for specified stage performances of the show, the recording rights are a separate issue entirely & attract a heftier fee & lollygagging licensing permission process. However a number of publishing agents are offering groups to video their production, for a fee of course. One that comes to mind is is STUART a member here;- http://www.lazybeescripts.co.uk/ - http://www.lazybeescripts.co.uk/ ------------- [western] Gondawandaland "Hear the light & see the sound! TOI TOI CHOOKAS {may you always play to a full house!} |
Posted By: Tired_Yeti
Date Posted: 4/16/11 at 1:52am
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Well, I confess that I stand corrected.
I guess the theater is asking for $15/each for DVDs of the last show. As far as I know it's only available to cast and crew. I don't really know much about it as I haven't heard much.
I'm gathering from this thread that the theater is treading on thin ice.
Does anyone have any links to sites that explain the laws concerning this?
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Posted By: Tired_Yeti
Date Posted: 4/16/11 at 2:07am
I think perhaps the laws may need to be revised; however, I don't know (at this time) who to go about that. In fact, I don't even know what the laws are regarding these things.
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Posted By: poindexter05
Date Posted: 4/16/11 at 9:21am
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In the days of VCR, there was little chance of the public being aware of a taping for distribution to the cast and archives... In today's digital world, a publisher could Google your YouTube upload as easily as one of us could. Our CT does not have the no-taping issue challenged often, though we recently did a large musical as a benefit production with a local high school and trying to stop diva Mom's and Dad's from taping their future Broadway stars is impossible without almost coming to blows. The clips did make their way to YouTube in spite of all the promises and innocent looks. |
Posted By: dboris
Date Posted: 4/18/11 at 12:37pm
http://www.mtishows.com/content.asp?id=3_3_0 - http://www.mtishows.com/content.asp?id=3_3_0
The same laws would apply to an other licensing company.
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Posted By: VisionE
Date Posted: 5/05/11 at 2:24pm
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For the teen theater I work with, we usually video tape the the show and provide copies to the actors. The director writes nearly all of the musicals we have done so we have permission to video tape them. I do not think she charges others much for the right to tape them. It is nice to be able to do this legally. When my daughter was in a middle school play, they did not video it and the audience was told not to do it ourselves. Despite that I saw several people with cameras. ------------- http://www.ectheatre.org/ http://www.spotlightmusicals.com/ |
Posted By: museav
Date Posted: 6/10/11 at 9:40am
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It's interesting to compare the results of this poll with the results of http://www.communitytheater.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3857 - http://www.communitytheater.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3857 . I wonder if this reflects a misconception that having any rights equates to having all rights or provides some justification to overlook other rights.
It seems that many people think the issue is whether one profits when what is actually involved is whether one benefits, which may or may not include any financial benefit. If the actors or family are asking for recordings then that seems to suggest there is some perceived benefit associated with that. And a recording used to review and assess performances seems intended specifically to provide some benefit.
While not necessarily legal, there can be a significant difference between a recording made for personal use and a recording that is distributed or one for which someone is paid. I really question how 'professional' a videographer is if they record a performance and provide a copy without verifying that the related rights have been procured and I wonder if their agreement includes some language saying that you are asserting that you have procured all related rights. ------------- Brad W. |