Community Theater Green Room Discussion Board: low-lying fog?

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David McCall
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Topic: low-lying fog?
Posted: 9/19/10 at 10:52am

The director wants to have a fog effect for our next show, but we have a blanket rule that nothing that rises can be used in the room. As far as I know this relatively new room (2007) has never actually been tested. We have a fancy alarm system and it is tied into the fire curtain, so I don't want to take a lot of chances. At some point I'd like to have the fire chief come over, with the alarm key in his hand. while we pump the room full of smoke to see how sensitive the alarm really is.

I've noticed that they now sell fog juice that is advertised as "low hanging", plus there are coolers available that claim to keep the fog low. Our grid is at 44', so the haze might take quite a while to get that high. I think what I have is technically a smoke machine, but it does use the water based juice.

Does anybody have any thoughts on low-lying fog juice and fog coolers that use regular ice from the 7-11? I really would like to get a little haze in the air to make my lights prettier.

I would like to not use dry ice fog for this show. The stage is pretty big, and it would take a lot of dry ice and at least 2 machines to get the desired effect. Plus it wouldn't be of much help with lighting.

David M

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SM_Ted
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Posted: 9/19/10 at 6:02pm

A conventional fog machine will a cooler will keep the fog lowish. Also, if you turn off the HVAC, the fog won't circulate and will typically stay closer to where you put it.

Most water based fog won't set off smoke detectors unless you get really crazy with it.

If you are in a new building, are you sure there are smoke detectors in the auditorium itself? I've never seen a theatre with particle/smoke detectors over the stage or house. They usually have heat (rate of rise) detectors or a multi-criteria fire detector specifically to reduce the risk of fog/haze induced false alarms.

PS-With a fog chiller, pick up a case of reusable freezer packs instead of ice. They last longer and don't make a mess.

Edited by SM_Ted - 9/19/10 at 6:03pm

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JoeMc
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Posted: 9/19/10 at 10:37pm

Ted is right they should be heat detectors in the fly loft viod, however in a lot of venues they use smoke detectors especialy in the auditorium & other adjacent areas.

Remembering that smoke has a mind of it,s own & any air movement will direct it onward & upwards anywhere.

Your Fire Indicator Panel [FIP] will or should have fire isolation Zones, which can be Isolated on the FIP during the production. However it is a good clue to advise your local Fire Station upon any Zone isolation, especialy if there is a Direct Brigade Alarm [DBA] installed & the aproximate duration of the isolation.

Depending upon the Alarm activation of the Fire Curtain {aka 'Iron' in the UK] which in certain situations may require an Alarm from 2 seperate detectors with a 90 second delay before Activation of the Fire Curtain coming down to efect isolation of the stage area from the auditorium. However venues here don't use an 'Iron' as a fire curtain these days, as they orefer large exhause fans on the roof above the stage which will suck up all the smoke to atmosphere, along with all soft hangings & everthing else that is not tied down.

Also in a few they use a Deluge water system just upstage of the house curtain, to act as a water fire curtian, which causes heaps of water damage to the lighting & floods the pit.

As you suggested by you it would be an idea to have a wongy with your FireMarshal &/or Fire Protection Company, that installed the system & conduct a fog/smoke/haze test.

If you find that smoke detectprs have been fitted instead of heat detectors, it is easy enough & in the venues interest to have them swapped out.

[western] Gondawandaland
"Hear the light & see the sound!
TOI TOI CHOOKAS
{may you always play to a full house!}

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SM_Ted
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Posted: 9/21/10 at 12:40am

Originally posted by JoeMc

Disabling or altering any portion of your fire detection and alarm system is 100% ILLEGAL without prior written consent from your AHJ (Authority Having Jurisdiction). Messing with the alarm system in any way will not only void your insurance but could also open you up to a negligence lawsuit.

There are ways to legally deactivate portions of your fire alarm, but you need to talk to your local fire marshal and your insurance provider.

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JoeMc
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Posted: 9/21/10 at 4:24am

I don't doubt you Ted but this is a normal practice in theatre venues here, especialy when smoke forms part of the performance. The isolation of a Zone is indicted on the Panel in the same manner as the isolation of a zone fault, Without isolating any other function of the Fire Indicator Panel & alarm capability. Which elevates the fire alarms being actived & susiquently causing panic & the attendance of false alarms by the local fire brigade. The Fire Panel is in control of the establishment to isolate Zones as required from action that may cause a false alarm to be actitvated, such as from cooking, work activities, detector faults & ciruit malfunction or with sprinkler heads leeking.

We don't have Fire Marshals here as such, beyond that of the local Fire Brigade Captain, who is not a legal enforcement entity & only that of in an authoritive advisory capacity. Therefore any breaches of the Fire or health & safety Act can only be prosecuted via the Local government.

I wonder how theatres on broadway or in nightclubs get on when using smoke effects?

Me thinks they only ring the local fire station which is monorting thier alarm panel & let them know that certain Fire Zones will be isolated during a designated period.

Edited by JoeMc - 9/23/10 at 1:38am

[western] Gondawandaland
"Hear the light & see the sound!
TOI TOI CHOOKAS
{may you always play to a full house!}

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SM_Ted
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Posted: 9/21/10 at 5:32am

Originally posted by JoeMc

I wonder how theatres on broadway or in nightclubs get on when using smoke effects?

Me thinks they only ring the local fire station which is monorting thier alarm panel & let them know that certain Fire Zones will be isolated during a designated period.

There are ways to legally deactivate part of a fire alarm system, but there is more to it than just leaving a message with the local fire department. Trust me on this one. If you are planning smoke effects and are concerned about false alarms, call your fire marshal/fire inspector/authority having jurisdiction and your insurance provider. They would love to help you out!

Even in Down Under, somebody somewhere is responsible for enforcing fire code regulations. Find out who that person is and call or meet with them before you start mucking with your fire alarm.

For the record, I'm not involved in "Community Theatre." This is what I do for a living, day in, day out. I've worked in 8000 seat venues, managed a 750 seat venue, am a licensed pyrotechnician, etc etc.

Edited by SM_Ted - 9/21/10 at 5:33am

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JoeMc
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Posted: 9/22/10 at 5:25am

Originally posted by SM_Ted

Originally posted by JoeMc

I wonder how theatres on broadway or in nightclubs get on when using smoke effects?

Me thinks they only ring the local fire station which is monorting thier alarm panel & let them know that certain Fire Zones will be isolated during a designated period.

There are ways to legally deactivate part of a fire alarm system, but there is more to it than just leaving a message with the local fire department.

Yes Ted!

Have a squint at my previous posts.

No matter what type of fire panel be it a 'Conventional', 'Adressable' or 'Programmable' type.

there will be a step by step procedure notice stuck to the inside of the panel.

It explains how to isolate designated fire zones & reset activated Fault or Alarmed zones.

Contacting the monitoring Fire Station is not merely 'the only thing to do', but purely a courtesy which saves a local Firey from contacting the venue, to find out the cause of the [DBA] fault or mafunction with the Fire Alarm System or fronting up to the premises during the performance. Which may possibly atract a substantial fee for them turning out.

Just as a side issue I'm actualy a Qualified Licenced Electrical 'A' Class Fitter/Installer [Master] & hold endorsements for Fire Protection devices/Supression Design, Testing, Installation & Engineering.

Along with various FIP &Romtec [DBA] Acreditations [ CAT 5 (AUSTEL) Licences].

I retired after working as a Theatre Techie/Electricain some years ago, after a quadruple bypass a 5th sucessfull Stroke & other various Plumbing jobs on me.

I still do comeatre mainly so I can carry on smoking 'n supporting the Arts,

rather than giving it up all together.

As far as legality is concerned the onus under the act in this State, is on the owner/encumbant of the premises, which is under thier control, to comply with rules & regulations of the Public Building Act, of which is dovetailed into the Health & safety Act, Fire, protection standards [SAA], along with all other legislation relating to Work Safe. Where by the fire equipment has to be tested regulary by a competant person & make a Test logbook available upon request.

However in West Australia, depending upon the False Alarm there is no provision for call out fees being charged by thr Fire Brigade, unlike other States or unless a criminal charges are brought about & proved in a law court.

I have forgotten the number of times I have raced to the Fire Panel, when for some reason or other, the production concerned has failed to inform the house they are using smoke in the show.

Besides the invention of the smoke detector in the US by Robins in 1890 by accident, the pohms [british] at around the same time developed the Heat Detector, which was a block of butter sandwiched between two contactor metal plates. The butter would melt with extreme ditect heat, thus close the contacts & complete the circuit to activate the Fire Bell. Upon hearing the bell alarm the Fire Curtain [Iron] was hauld in.

Edited by JoeMc - 9/23/10 at 1:52am

[western] Gondawandaland
"Hear the light & see the sound!
TOI TOI CHOOKAS
{may you always play to a full house!}

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Topic: low-lying fog?( Topic Closed)