Active TopicsActive Topics  Display List of Forum MembersMemberlist  CalendarCalendar  Search The ForumSearch  HelpHelp
  RegisterRegister  LoginLogin
Money Talk
 Community Theater Green Room Discussion Board :Theater Administration :Money Talk
Message Icon Topic: Ball park...how much are the rights for C(Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post Reply Post New Topic
Page  of 2 Next >>
Author Message
starbucks10172
Walk-On
Walk-On


Joined: 4/07/09
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 0
bullet Topic: Ball park...how much are the rights for C
    Posted: 4/07/09 at 1:54am
Tam-Witmark won't quote me unless I apply for it.

Has someone who has done the show help me out here?
IP IP Logged
John Luzaich
Celebrity
Celebrity


Joined: 2/24/08
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 174
bullet Posted: 4/10/09 at 10:54am
There is not a one set price for producing shows, unless you are a school group.  Most royalties are based on 3 - things: (1) total number of performances, (2) ticket prices, (3) number of seats in your venue.  Two different theatres could be producing "Kiss Me Kate".  One theatre might pay $3000 in royalties, the other theatre might pay $8000. 
John
cfct@cfu.net
http://www.osterregent.org
http://www.facebook.com/osterregent
IP IP Logged
ahadon
Walk-On
Walk-On
Avatar

Joined: 5/10/07
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 0
bullet Posted: 6/10/09 at 2:36pm
you don't have to actually take the rights with tams whitmark.  they have to have certain information.   I know that when my old theatre did "Snoopy!!!" we had to pay upwards of 2000.00 for it, my current group, which I am president of only has to pay in the neighborhood of 500.00 for it.   Like John said, its based on certain criteria. 
 
Filling out the form for TWM doesn't tie you to the show, it just allows them to give you an accurate quote based on your venue, seating capacity, how many performances you are planning to give and your ticket pricing.
 
HTH!
Currently at Bartlett Community Theatre, Bartlett, TN

Technical Director
Set Design
IP IP Logged
lparks
Star
Star
Avatar

Joined: 1/12/10
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 58
bullet Posted: 4/01/10 at 3:15pm
To get an estimate, simply do the following:

Total Seats Available Per Performance (x) Total AVERAGE ticket price (x) 12%.

This will give you the average royalty per performance. Almost all musicals range from 9%-14% in roylaties, so using 12% gives you a good middle ground.

To get an exact quote, you need to apply for a license. They won't hold you to it, as it's only a quote.
Landon Parks,
Producing Artistic Director,
Bloomington Repertory Theatre Co
IP IP Logged
Theatermama
Star
Star


Joined: 7/23/10
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 60
bullet Posted: 9/19/10 at 6:33pm
I have just signed a contract with Tams Witmark for "You're a Good Man Charlie Brown"  and the above formula does not even come close to my quote.  Based on what I sent them for numbers if I used that formula we would only have to pay about $420 but we were quoted $345 for the first show and $145 for each additional show which adds up to $775. It is pursuant on the size of your house and ticket prices and number of performances.
However, there is no requirement to pay anything until you sign the contract.  If you order a perusal script you will have to pay about $20 shipping ($19.75 was what mine was) for that just to view it for 2 weeks.  However, if you decide you want to keep it because you are doing the show, you can send them $200 + the $20 and the signed contract and then pay the balance of your royalties before you get your scripts and other materials but you get to keep the perusal ones. Or you can send your shipping fee for the perusal materials and ship them back to them.   They have actually been very helpful to work with and you can even call them and talk to them and they will send you your quote.
 
It may be based on percentage but it has to be a pretty high percentage.  Our Christmas show is by a published author that used to be local and he is letting us do it for 7% of the house which is actually a better deal.  I hope we can have full houses for Charlie but given the time of the show and past history, I hope for at least half to 3/4 houses and I told them this too and they took that into account when they gave me the quote or so the letter says.  By my figuring, they are charging me about 19% and that is if I practically sell out the house for all 4 shows which could happen but that to me is a pretty steap percentage.
IP IP Logged
lparks
Star
Star
Avatar

Joined: 1/12/10
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 58
bullet Posted: 9/19/10 at 9:05pm

Sheila-
Actually, my math was right-on. If you have ticket prices of $15/$12 (I think you said that earlier) and you can seat a maximum of 150 per performance, your total income is $2,025 per show. $2,025 x 9% = $182 per performance. If you ask me, that is pretty close to the $145 you were quoted. The lower royalty you paid was probably because they calculated in less than a full house. 112 (2/3 house) x $13.50 x 9% is $136. Almost exactly what you were quoted.

Remember, I did not say ALL shows are 12%. I said they range from 9-14.

NOW, I don't know which venue you are in for this show. If your in the Firebay, I can see why you think my math is off. There is a minimum the licensing house will go. In a venue that small, your still going to pay more than 14% simply because the seating x price is less than the minimum-per-show royalty they are required for collect. Most musicals require at least $120-$150 per show be paid, regardless of ticket price (if any) and seating.

Short of being friends with the author, or getting the play from the author or his agent - you will not see an amateur theatre company getting a % of Box Office deal. Professionals usually pay 1/2 the estimated box office upfront and then submit the rest of in a % if they sell more than that. Amateurs most always have to pay the full amount upfront on both plays and musicals. For plays by an amateur company, the royalty is pretty flat at between $75 and $100 per performance. Professional COULD end up paying more than this with their box office split, but most of the time professional company's receive a better deal if they sell less than expected houses.

QUOTE: SHEILA BUTLER -
I have just signed a contract with Tams Witmark for "You're a Good Man Charlie Brown"  and the above formula does not even come close to my quote.  Based on what I sent them for numbers if I used that formula we would only have to pay about $420 but we were quoted $345 for the first show and $145 for each additional show which adds up to $775. It is pursuant on the size of your house and ticket prices and number of performances.
However, there is no requirement to pay anything until you sign the contract.  If you order a perusal script you will have to pay about $20 shipping ($19.75 was what mine was) for that just to view it for 2 weeks.  However, if you decide you want to keep it because you are doing the show, you can send them $200 + the $20 and the signed contract and then pay the balance of your royalties before you get your scripts and other materials but you get to keep the perusal ones. Or you can send your shipping fee for the perusal materials and ship them back to them.   They have actually been very helpful to work with and you can even call them and talk to them and they will send you your quote.
 
It may be based on percentage but it has to be a pretty high percentage.  Our Christmas show is by a published author that used to be local and he is letting us do it for 7% of the house which is actually a better deal.  I hope we can have full houses for Charlie but given the time of the show and past history, I hope for at least half to 3/4 houses and I told them this too and they took that into account when they gave me the quote or so the letter says.  By my figuring, they are charging me about 19% and that is if I practically sell out the house for all 4 shows which could happen but that to me is a pretty steap percentage.



Edited by lparks - 9/19/10 at 10:24pm
Landon Parks,
Producing Artistic Director,
Bloomington Repertory Theatre Co
IP IP Logged
Theatermama
Star
Star


Joined: 7/23/10
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 60
bullet Posted: 9/19/10 at 11:33pm
Well Landon - the numbers I sent in for my quote were with tickets ranging between $8 and $12 which would average out to $10.  Unless we set up the seats in the alley set like Cardinal has done (I am considering this) the auditorium doesn't seat much more than 100-120 per side or at least that is what it sat the last time we used the theater and what we counted when we were there last weekend (one side had 6 rows of 19 and the other side had 5 rows of 19).  I told them 100 seats at $8/$10  $10/$12 - I am considering raising but that would mean an increase and I have to decide if we would make it back.  Those were the numbers they calculated so my calculations say it is 19% of potential and I am not sure we can make potential. If you take $775 and divide it by $4000($10 x 100 seats x 4 performances)  you get 19%.
 
What formula they use I do not know.  Our royalties for Babes in Arms were also quite steep in percentage because we had to list such a big house knowing full well we would not sell even half for most shows.
 
I told them that here too and they said they accounted for that.
 
When we did Complete Works this summer - you were to estimate your house and pay 10% of that to the licensing company and then you sent an accounting of your box office and paid the difference - they recommended you estimate low.  This is the way they did all of their plays.  So yes some companies do a box office percentage.
 
All 3 different companies and each were different in how they did it.
 
What companies have you actually paid royalties to that you can speak with such authority? What shows have you taken through production?  I thought Narnia is your first show and it doesn't open until Christmas Eve and hasn't even begun rehearsals yet.
 
I think it is important for anyone to get a quote based on their particular circumstance and not rely on a formula as you can see I have paid from 10% to almost 20% so it is a wide range depending on the play and the script company.  That price did not even include the rental for music if we go with orchestration.
IP IP Logged
lparks
Star
Star
Avatar

Joined: 1/12/10
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 58
bullet Posted: 9/20/10 at 6:19am
Well Landon - the numbers I sent in for my quote were with tickets ranging between $8 and $12 which would average out to $10.
Okay, 100 seats x $10 = $1,000 x 12% is $120. Again, if you ask me, a VERY close figure for an estimate. Remember, I did say that would only get a rough estimate. Actually, based on what your telling me  - your royalty is closer to 14% (which is on the high end, but still within the range I specified). 14% of your quote would be $140.


Unless we set up the seats in the alley set like Cardinal has done (I am considering this) the auditorium doesn't seat much more than 100-120 per side or at least that is what it sat the last time we used the theater and what we counted when we were there last weekend (one side had 6 rows of 19 and the other side had 5 rows of 19).
The Auditorium seats 191 in "Alley" configuration. 150-160 in standard configuration (according to Paul anyways). So yes, your numbers were close. We are staging Narnia in "Alley" configuration to give more seats, as well as because the original production in 1985 was staged in a similar way.

 What companies have you actually paid royalties to that you can speak with such authority? What shows have you taken through production?  I thought Narnia is your first show and it doesn't open until Christmas Eve and hasn't even begun rehearsals yet.
Well, I just signed the agreement for Narnia not a two months ago. I have, however, received many quotes from most all of the houses in putting together our 2011 budget. Rather I actually entered into the agreement is not relevant, the quotes I have received would still stay the same. I have received well over 20 separate quotes from MTI, at least 10 from R&H and 2 from Samuel French. Narnia is from Dramatic Publishing, which I also received several quotes from, and have officially signed a license agreement with. I have never received a quote from Tams, as they really have no shows that I would want to do - short of maybe Titanic or The Scarlet Pimpernel.

ALSO: I did not just magically come up with that formula on my own. I saw an article with an interview with a license rep from MTI about a year back that mentioned how they calculate royalties. In every instance, no matter were I have received a quote from, my quotes are ALWAYS between 8-14% of my potential ticket sales (for musicals, not plays). I can email you copies of many of the MTI or R&H Quotes if you would like to double check my math?

When we did Complete Works this summer - you were to estimate your house and pay 10% of that to the licensing company and then you sent an accounting of your box office and paid the difference - they recommended you estimate low.  This is the way they did all of their plays.  So yes some companies do a box office percentage.
I don't know which house this was through, but some do operate differently, yes. I was referring to musicals, not plays. Many houses handles plays the same way (Samuel French, Dramatic Publishing, Dramatist, etc) in that they charge amateurs a flat fee per performance (usually between $75 and $100). Few of the companies have a different way (the only one that comes to mind is Playscripts.com) in that you pay the flat fee upfront and then submit a signed box office report to them and pay 8% (if that is more than you already paid)

That price did not even include the rental for music if we go with orchestration.
I did not say it did, did I? Orchestra ranges very broad. Almost all musicals from Dramatic Publishing (including Narnia) are a flat $350+$100 deposit. Piano Scores or Accompaniment CD's tend to be about $250+$100 deposit.

MTI seems about the same as well, generally between $900 and $1,200 (at least from the quotes I have received for up to 3 weeks). Samuel French wanted $800 to rent scores for "The Secret Garden".

For the "big" two musical publishers (MTI, R&H), R&H tends to have the lowest royalties and rental fees. Evita from R&H (with the same ticket and seating) was about 10% with a rental of $400.

If you add in the cost of the Orchextra or Instrumentalease, that runs about $400 a week with a minimum of 4 weeks.

I think it is important for anyone to get a quote based on their particular circumstance and not rely on a formula as you can see I have paid from 10% to almost 20% so it is a wide range depending on the play and the script company.
YES. No single person can tell you exactly what the cost will be. I have never been quoted anything near 20% though. Hell, Les Miserables was only quoted at 14%, and that is probably one of the best selling shows.. If you'll notice in my original post, I stated that the only way to get a sure number is to request a quote. The figured and formula I gave were to get a very rough estimate. IN 95% of the cases, the formula I have will give you a fairly good ballpark figure for most any licensing house. Sure, there are some exceptions, but most of the time that formula will work.

At least, it was pretty close to what you were quoted? In fact, VERY close. So how can you turn around and say that my formula would have put you at 19% Royalty? No it would no. If your paying $145 per performance (after the first performance if $345 - which is new to me. No other licensing house I have received a quote from has charged more for the first performance). $145 of $1,000 is 14.5%, if it not? Is that not what I said could be on the high end?

$145 of $1,000 is not 19%, no matter which way you toss the coin.

PS) This is just my opinion, but I really think you should raise your ticket prices a little more. Most community theaters I can find charge at least $16 for adults. Only a select few I have ran across are lower than this. I understand your desire to be open to more people - but in some cases, people actually perceive a higher price to be a higher quality production (rather it is true or not). I'm not saying jack it up to a huge amount, but I really think your under pricing your shows at $12/$8. NOW, before you go asking me were I have the experience to make this advice - It is not mine. I took that directly from the book "Presenting Performances" by Thomas Wolf, which is a very helpful guide is setting prices, finding sponsors, etc.

We are doing $20/$15/$12 for Narnia and we already have people bugging us to buy tickets (they don't go on sale at the BCT box office until the 27th).





Edited by lparks - 9/20/10 at 9:14am
Landon Parks,
Producing Artistic Director,
Bloomington Repertory Theatre Co
IP IP Logged
Theatermama
Star
Star


Joined: 7/23/10
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 60
bullet Posted: 9/20/10 at 10:16pm
Yes and $140 at the top end times 4 is $560 - that is more than $200 difference and with our finances that is a huge difference. Remember my quote was based on 100 seats, not 150.  So if you do the math they gave me it is 19% which is based on selling all 100 of those seats and if I don't then the percentage is actually higher that that from our total. I didn't say your formula put me at 19% I said what they charged me is 19% of what I said my potential was with 100 seats at $10 a ticket average.  You have to look at $775 divided by $4000 not on an individual night.
 
I intended to raise my prices which in fact these are over Babes in Arms but I guess I had sent for a quote before I decided to do that.  I may amend that with at least $15 but since I don't need the scripts until January, I will see how Scrooge Variations does with higher ticket prices first.   I just fear they are going to charge even more.  I am however going to talk to someone and show them the math and ask if they usually charge that high of a percentage - it seems high to me too but it is what it is and we are advertised so we are doing the show and I don't want to screw that up.
 
Good luck with Narnia.
 
The pricing range they are referring to is actually at the door $12/$10 and presell from cast members $10/$8 but I think I will see about $15/$12 and $13/$10 maybe. I don't think I have published prices yet.
 
Thank you for your research.
IP IP Logged
lparks
Star
Star
Avatar

Joined: 1/12/10
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 58
bullet Posted: 9/21/10 at 9:15am
Hey sheila-
True, $200 is a big difference. Like I said, that formula is not going to give you an exact number. It might give you some kind of an idea of the cost though. I would advise anyone who is putting together an actual budget to get a quote. Some company's (like MTI) will actually send you a quote via email in 30 minutes - 24 hours a day.

Also, it just now occurred to me that there is one other company I can think of that does the higher first performance royalty, and that is Pioneer Drama. Although they charge a flat fee for most shows ("like $90 first performance/$80 additional").

Thanks for the good wishes on Narnia, and I hope that Charlie Brown does well for you as well as well. I forgot when you said the show was going to be? Look forward to seeing it.

Thanks,
Landon Parks,
Producing Artistic Director,
Bloomington Repertory Theatre Co
IP IP Logged
Page  of 2 Next >>
Post Reply Post New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums version 8.05
Copyright ©2001-2006 Web Wiz Guide
buy generic cialis are in line cialis canada outcome for yourself viagra sales cost saving benefit viagra uk convert your buy phentermine online pay phentermine cod payment Lenders Everything xanax online your existing xanax overnight absolute must free incest stories online The value gay incest advance The key free dog sex pics cash flow dog sex the reduced noise free gay college guys of the period gay guys