Community Theater Green Room Discussion Board: HELP: Hazers vs. Smoke Detectors

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Mr. Lowell
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Topic: HELP: Hazers vs. Smoke Detectors
Posted: 9/05/08 at 11:05am

Do you guys have any advice on how NOT to set off the house smoke detectors when using hazers and smoke machines for a musical?

I'm designing the lighting for "Les Miserables" in a new theatre that has smoke detectors inside all the HVAC ducts in the wings, as well as IR beam detectors in the house! But I've just gotta' have atmosphere for "Les Mis"...there's no set, so I need to "light the air".

But it would suck if the fire alarms went off in the middle of Act II and freaked out the 600 patrons. But then again, it's those 600 patrons that the system is there to protect in the first place. That is the problem.

"Dry ice fog" is out of the question. Even when "heated" is still hugs the floor. I need a perpetual thin haze throughout the 2+ hour show. Although for the battle on the barricade scene I will also need to use a smoke machine or two.

I usually use a Rosco Fog Machine which burns a thin fluid similar to sewing machine oil or radiator fluid. Is there a water-based smoke discharger that will not set off alarms? Would a water-based hazer need to run constantly?...(due to constant precipitation of the haze?) For that matter, would a water-based hazer make the stage floor slippery?

And what about the alarms themselves? Have you ever worked with the alarm company and/or the fire department to put the system in "test mode" during the performance? I have heard of this being done before, but the fire marshall insisted that the production hire an off-duty firefighter to stand backstage for the entire run!

Any advice on this subject would be appreciated. Thanks, Dana

Mr. Lowell,
Lighting/Set Designer & Tech Director,
for the Linda Sloan Theatre,
in the Davison Center for the Arts,
at Greensboro Day School

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JoeMc
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Location: Australia
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Posted: 9/06/08 at 10:35pm

Being a new venue, adjacent to a conventional Fire Indicator Panel [FIP], there will be a Fire Alarm detector plan of the building. This should be designated into a separate Fire Zone area map, these numbered zones will correspond to those on the Fire Panel. There should be also instructions of how to perform Zone isolation, on the inside of the panels door.

In modern performance spaces they normally install a two separate detector circuits one each for smoke & heat detection in the stage & auditorium zones. So if smoke is used the areas are covered by Heat detectors, while the Smoke detectors have been Isolated. This is also the same with air return & vent ducting.

Check with Company who either installed the system or the one that does the regular testing & maintenance. The Company contact should be posted on the FIP or in the fire Alarm record book inside the panel.

It is possible the Fire Marshal may not know that there is a separate Smoke isolation & heat back up system. As this is not normal other than in entertainment venues.

One thing to remember is smoke has a mind of it"s own, it is influenced by any air movement & it will also head straight for the highest point.

[western] Gondawandaland
"Hear the light & see the sound!
TOI TOI CHOOKAS
{may you always play to a full house!}

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Mr. Lowell
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Joined: 1/30/07
Location: United States
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Posts: 269

Posted: 9/09/08 at 8:26am

Thanks Joe. I know that we have passive fuseable links for heat in the tripwires on the fire curtain, the backstage roll-up doors, and the roof doors over the loft. But I haven't heard of any electronics geared specifically towards heat. I will ask my alarm guy if we have a heat detection system that can be left on while the smoke system is in test mode on stage.

Mr. Lowell,
Lighting/Set Designer & Tech Director,
for the Linda Sloan Theatre,
in the Davison Center for the Arts,
at Greensboro Day School

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JoeMc
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Joined: 3/13/06
Location: Australia
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Posted: 9/10/08 at 6:06am

We don't use the old 'Iron' [fire curtain] here, in the more modern venues they use 'deluge' water systems, which takes two separate detectors to set it off. The first switches the alarm bells & whistles. Then only if a second detector goes into alarm, will after 90 seconds opens the deluge system. Other have the large exhaust fans on the roof, above the fly loft. Which are large enough to suck up all the soft hanging on the stage. Also opening the loading dock doors & smoke vents.

The first heat detector used a block of butter, as a fuseable link, the butter was placed between two plates, when there was enough heat to melt the butter, the plates would close together, creating a circuit & the alarm would go off.

You will find the fuseable link on your "iron', will be activated by heat normally, in much the same fashion.

Unless you have a VESDA [Very early smoke Detector Apparatus]. which is an air sampling asparator system, via regularly drilled holes in white conduit runs, installed through out the venue. Your fire zones can be easily set up with an additional heat detector circuit, which will be cheaper to install, than employing a Fireman each time, in the long run.

[western] Gondawandaland
"Hear the light & see the sound!
TOI TOI CHOOKAS
{may you always play to a full house!}

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Aimee
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Joined: 8/31/04
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Posted: 9/25/08 at 10:37am

One of the theaters I work at has the actual alarms off for those performances, the sensors are still doing their thing, but security turns the alarm off when we use hazers.

In the end I always check with the fire marshal with any questions about the alarms or materials I may want to use. When it doubt ASK and ask again.

Aimee

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Mr. Lowell
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Joined: 1/30/07
Location: United States
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Posts: 269

Posted: 10/23/08 at 8:49pm

Has anyone found it necessary to print a warning in the program about the use of hazers/smoke machines during performances?

Mr. Lowell,
Lighting/Set Designer & Tech Director,
for the Linda Sloan Theatre,
in the Davison Center for the Arts,
at Greensboro Day School

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JoeMc
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Joined: 3/13/06
Location: Australia
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Posts: 832

Posted: 10/24/08 at 12:39am

Many years ago now, with an Opera Australia show, they had a warning in the programme.

However that is now old hat, as a lot of productions include the use of smoke.

Funnily enough last night on pay TV, I was watching a Royal Variety Performance, from the then new 'millennium Centre in Cardiff Wales. For the 'Gold finger number, they used smoke. As the centre had no 'pit', the front few rows in the Stalls, got enveloped in Smoke, rolling off the stage.

I could see a lot of the punters, doing polite coughs into their hands & a few red faces trying to hold their breath. Queen Lizzy & Phil were in the Royal Ashtray, the look on her 'Boat race' suggested 'We are not amused'. I bet there was no notices in that Royal Programme.

The Au Opera Company years ago actually marketed approved fluid, for smoke machines, but it was not a winner & they flushed it down the Dunny eventually, as a wasted effort.

But no matter how what you do, as soon as there is a wisp of smoke on the stage, the cough chorus starts up in tune.

Being an asthmatic it does not worry me, but if is too bad, I nick out for a Smokeo to clear my lungs.

Smoke/haze & dry ice has a mind of it's own & is subject to any drafts, breezes &/or any air movement.

You could just place a notice at the entrance, that smoke is being used, during the performance, but no one takes any heed anyway - in much the same way, when requesting them to turn off phones & not to use any recording devices.

As yet I have never heard of a punter complain, because of the use of these effects!

have a squint at this site, for make your own Smoke Fluid;-

http://www.bigclive.com/smoke.htm

[western] Gondawandaland
"Hear the light & see the sound!
TOI TOI CHOOKAS
{may you always play to a full house!}

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Mr. Lowell
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Joined: 1/30/07
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 269

Posted: 10/30/08 at 9:09pm

UPDATE:
Today I had the alarm company expert in the theatre for a demo. I ran the water-based hazer for one hour straight. I also ran the oil-based Rosco smoke machine for 20 minutes at full output...which is much more than I will need for the battle scene in Les Mis.

We could not get the smoke detectors or beam detectors to trip. So we are safe for the performances.

However I will still mention the use of smoke in the program, (as well as the strobe light).

Thanks everyone for your input.
I'll keep you posted on how the show goes. -Dana

Mr. Lowell,
Lighting/Set Designer & Tech Director,
for the Linda Sloan Theatre,
in the Davison Center for the Arts,
at Greensboro Day School

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JoeMc
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Joined: 3/13/06
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 832

Posted: 10/30/08 at 9:59pm

Bewdy Danna the exercise was worth while & should hopefully elevate your worries?

Lets hope you don't encounter any problems, if they are going to happen at all, they should manifest during tech or dress rehearsal?Toi Toi chooksas for your season of 'Les Mis' & may you play to all full houses.

[western] Gondawandaland
"Hear the light & see the sound!
TOI TOI CHOOKAS
{may you always play to a full house!}

IP Logged

Mr. Lowell
Celebrity

Joined: 1/30/07
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 269

Posted: 12/15/08 at 12:40pm

Followup:
The production was a tremendous success. Our alarm system was never set off by the smoke or haze, which was a relief. So it was worth the hassle of all that testing it.

Here are some pictures that shows how stunning the lighting can look while using a hazer. This is the barricade scene and this is the bridge scene.

On the inside page of the program, our director printed the following notice: "Please be aware that theatrical smoke, live gunshots and a strobe light are used in this production."

Mr. Lowell,
Lighting/Set Designer & Tech Director,
for the Linda Sloan Theatre,
in the Davison Center for the Arts,
at Greensboro Day School

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Lights and Sound
Community Theater Green Room Discussion Board :Producing Theater :Lights and Sound

Author	Message
Mr. Lowell Celebrity Joined: 1/30/07 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 269	Topic: HELP: Hazers vs. Smoke Detectors Posted: 9/05/08 at 11:05am
	Do you guys have any advice on how NOT to set off the house smoke detectors when using hazers and smoke machines for a musical? I'm designing the lighting for "Les Miserables" in a new theatre that has smoke detectors inside all the HVAC ducts in the wings, as well as IR beam detectors in the house! But I've just gotta' have atmosphere for "Les Mis"...there's no set, so I need to "light the air". But it would suck if the fire alarms went off in the middle of Act II and freaked out the 600 patrons. But then again, it's those 600 patrons that the system is there to protect in the first place. That is the problem. "Dry ice fog" is out of the question. Even when "heated" is still hugs the floor. I need a perpetual thin haze throughout the 2+ hour show. Although for the battle on the barricade scene I will also need to use a smoke machine or two. I usually use a Rosco Fog Machine which burns a thin fluid similar to sewing machine oil or radiator fluid. Is there a water-based smoke discharger that will not set off alarms? Would a water-based hazer need to run constantly?...(due to constant precipitation of the haze?) For that matter, would a water-based hazer make the stage floor slippery? And what about the alarms themselves? Have you ever worked with the alarm company and/or the fire department to put the system in "test mode" during the performance? I have heard of this being done before, but the fire marshall insisted that the production hire an off-duty firefighter to stand backstage for the entire run! Any advice on this subject would be appreciated. Thanks, Dana
	Mr. Lowell, Lighting/Set Designer & Tech Director, for the Linda Sloan Theatre, in the Davison Center for the Arts, at Greensboro Day School

	IP Logged

JoeMc Celebrity Joined: 3/13/06 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 832	Posted: 9/06/08 at 10:35pm
	Being a new venue, adjacent to a conventional Fire Indicator Panel [FIP], there will be a Fire Alarm detector plan of the building. This should be designated into a separate Fire Zone area map, these numbered zones will correspond to those on the Fire Panel. There should be also instructions of how to perform Zone isolation, on the inside of the panels door. In modern performance spaces they normally install a two separate detector circuits one each for smoke & heat detection in the stage & auditorium zones. So if smoke is used the areas are covered by Heat detectors, while the Smoke detectors have been Isolated. This is also the same with air return & vent ducting. Check with Company who either installed the system or the one that does the regular testing & maintenance. The Company contact should be posted on the FIP or in the fire Alarm record book inside the panel. It is possible the Fire Marshal may not know that there is a separate Smoke isolation & heat back up system. As this is not normal other than in entertainment venues. One thing to remember is smoke has a mind of it"s own, it is influenced by any air movement & it will also head straight for the highest point.
	[western] Gondawandaland "Hear the light & see the sound! TOI TOI CHOOKAS {may you always play to a full house!}
	IP Logged

Mr. Lowell Celebrity Joined: 1/30/07 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 269	Posted: 9/09/08 at 8:26am
	Thanks Joe. I know that we have passive fuseable links for heat in the tripwires on the fire curtain, the backstage roll-up doors, and the roof doors over the loft. But I haven't heard of any electronics geared specifically towards heat. I will ask my alarm guy if we have a heat detection system that can be left on while the smoke system is in test mode on stage.
	Mr. Lowell, Lighting/Set Designer & Tech Director, for the Linda Sloan Theatre, in the Davison Center for the Arts, at Greensboro Day School
	IP Logged

JoeMc Celebrity Joined: 3/13/06 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 832	Posted: 9/10/08 at 6:06am
	We don't use the old 'Iron' [fire curtain] here, in the more modern venues they use 'deluge' water systems, which takes two separate detectors to set it off. The first switches the alarm bells & whistles. Then only if a second detector goes into alarm, will after 90 seconds opens the deluge system. Other have the large exhaust fans on the roof, above the fly loft. Which are large enough to suck up all the soft hanging on the stage. Also opening the loading dock doors & smoke vents. The first heat detector used a block of butter, as a fuseable link, the butter was placed between two plates, when there was enough heat to melt the butter, the plates would close together, creating a circuit & the alarm would go off. You will find the fuseable link on your "iron', will be activated by heat normally, in much the same fashion. Unless you have a VESDA [Very early smoke Detector Apparatus]. which is an air sampling asparator system, via regularly drilled holes in white conduit runs, installed through out the venue. Your fire zones can be easily set up with an additional heat detector circuit, which will be cheaper to install, than employing a Fireman each time, in the long run.
	[western] Gondawandaland "Hear the light & see the sound! TOI TOI CHOOKAS {may you always play to a full house!}
	IP Logged

Aimee Celebrity Joined: 8/31/04 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 156	Posted: 9/25/08 at 10:37am
	One of the theaters I work at has the actual alarms off for those performances, the sensors are still doing their thing, but security turns the alarm off when we use hazers. In the end I always check with the fire marshal with any questions about the alarms or materials I may want to use. When it doubt ASK and ask again.
	Aimee
	IP Logged

Mr. Lowell Celebrity Joined: 1/30/07 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 269	Posted: 10/23/08 at 8:49pm
	Has anyone found it necessary to print a warning in the program about the use of hazers/smoke machines during performances?
	Mr. Lowell, Lighting/Set Designer & Tech Director, for the Linda Sloan Theatre, in the Davison Center for the Arts, at Greensboro Day School
	IP Logged

JoeMc Celebrity Joined: 3/13/06 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 832	Posted: 10/24/08 at 12:39am
	Many years ago now, with an Opera Australia show, they had a warning in the programme. However that is now old hat, as a lot of productions include the use of smoke. Funnily enough last night on pay TV, I was watching a Royal Variety Performance, from the then new 'millennium Centre in Cardiff Wales. For the 'Gold finger number, they used smoke. As the centre had no 'pit', the front few rows in the Stalls, got enveloped in Smoke, rolling off the stage. I could see a lot of the punters, doing polite coughs into their hands & a few red faces trying to hold their breath. Queen Lizzy & Phil were in the Royal Ashtray, the look on her 'Boat race' suggested 'We are not amused'. I bet there was no notices in that Royal Programme. The Au Opera Company years ago actually marketed approved fluid, for smoke machines, but it was not a winner & they flushed it down the Dunny eventually, as a wasted effort. But no matter how what you do, as soon as there is a wisp of smoke on the stage, the cough chorus starts up in tune. Being an asthmatic it does not worry me, but if is too bad, I nick out for a Smokeo to clear my lungs. Smoke/haze & dry ice has a mind of it's own & is subject to any drafts, breezes &/or any air movement. You could just place a notice at the entrance, that smoke is being used, during the performance, but no one takes any heed anyway - in much the same way, when requesting them to turn off phones & not to use any recording devices. As yet I have never heard of a punter complain, because of the use of these effects! have a squint at this site, for make your own Smoke Fluid;- http://www.bigclive.com/smoke.htm
	[western] Gondawandaland "Hear the light & see the sound! TOI TOI CHOOKAS {may you always play to a full house!}
	IP Logged

Mr. Lowell Celebrity Joined: 1/30/07 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 269	Posted: 10/30/08 at 9:09pm
	UPDATE: Today I had the alarm company expert in the theatre for a demo. I ran the water-based hazer for one hour straight. I also ran the oil-based Rosco smoke machine for 20 minutes at full output...which is much more than I will need for the battle scene in Les Mis. We could not get the smoke detectors or beam detectors to trip. So we are safe for the performances. However I will still mention the use of smoke in the program, (as well as the strobe light). Thanks everyone for your input. I'll keep you posted on how the show goes. -Dana
	Mr. Lowell, Lighting/Set Designer & Tech Director, for the Linda Sloan Theatre, in the Davison Center for the Arts, at Greensboro Day School
	IP Logged

JoeMc Celebrity Joined: 3/13/06 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 832	Posted: 10/30/08 at 9:59pm
	Bewdy Danna the exercise was worth while & should hopefully elevate your worries? Lets hope you don't encounter any problems, if they are going to happen at all, they should manifest during tech or dress rehearsal?Toi Toi chooksas for your season of 'Les Mis' & may you play to all full houses.
	[western] Gondawandaland "Hear the light & see the sound! TOI TOI CHOOKAS {may you always play to a full house!}
	IP Logged

Mr. Lowell Celebrity Joined: 1/30/07 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 269	Posted: 12/15/08 at 12:40pm
	Followup: The production was a tremendous success. Our alarm system was never set off by the smoke or haze, which was a relief. So it was worth the hassle of all that testing it. Here are some pictures that shows how stunning the lighting can look while using a hazer. This is the barricade scene and this is the bridge scene. On the inside page of the program, our director printed the following notice: "Please be aware that theatrical smoke, live gunshots and a strobe light are used in this production."
	Mr. Lowell, Lighting/Set Designer & Tech Director, for the Linda Sloan Theatre, in the Davison Center for the Arts, at Greensboro Day School
	IP Logged

Topic: HELP: Hazers vs. Smoke Detectors( Topic Closed)