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Props, Scenery, Costumes and Makeup
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neilfortin
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bullet Topic: Fog/dry ice
    Posted: 2/14/08 at 4:28pm
Hey guys! Although i have used fog machines and dry ice in the past (both with resonably good results) We are looking for something different. The venue we are performing Cyrano in has a very sensative fire alarm system which, we have been warned, is so sensative that the smoke from a smoke machine may set it off....We don't want these costumes covered in water. So does anyone have ANY alternatives? We have used dry ice before but it is so damn loud when its bubbling in a container. Were stumped...the battle scene needs the smoke from the revolvers, and from the burning materials...any suggestions would be great!
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JoeMc
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bullet Posted: 2/14/08 at 5:52pm
May I suggest a few things you could investige with the venue, which may help?
Is the fire detection system zoned into different detection areas? Which is the norm with nearly all Fire Alarm Panels [FPA]. If so the general practice is to isolate the stage zone during the time sdmoke is being used. However in a lot of cases venue management don't feel disposed to take the time to physicaly press the zone isolation button &/or have no idea how to work the FPA. In most circustances if the FPA is fitted with a Fire Brigade Direct Alarm [DBA], it is required to contact the Fire Station & adise that a Zone isolation is being effected. This also ensures that the venue is contacted & reminded by the Fire Station Control room, to reinstate the isolated Zone, if the time period of isolation, has been exceeded & possibly forgotten.
However as smoke tends to have a mind of it's own, no matter how it used it will wonder everywhere, depending on air movement & the odd drafts.
no matter what type of detection is used, be it smoke or VESDA {Very Early Smoke Dettection Apparatus] Air sampling system}. It will be able to be controled in zones.
Also maybe if they are individual Smoke detectors over the stage area. It can be as simple as  replaced with Heat Detectors, which is the normall practice in theatre venues. Much the same as is done in restaurant kitchens & anywhere the toasting of bread or burning of other products takes place.
Although some thing that does worry me in your post, is the costumes becoming wet, in presumably an alarm situation. Meaning the venue has a Sprinkler or Deluge system on the stage? Which can create more problems than they solve generaly. I hope this not the case, as it has been proved that large exhaust fans over the stage & fly loft, is a more effective fire suspession method on stages.
I hope my waffle may help?
 
 
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TonyDi
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bullet Posted: 2/15/08 at 7:54am
Boy does this give me a fond? laugh.  While I really have no answers to the problems I do understand the apprehension.  We were doing Sweeney Todd at University of Kentucky's summer theater and this was on OPENING NIGHT.  Front proscenium curtain closed, house FULL of patrons, smoke was filling the stage so we would have that eerie, moody setting for the opening of Sweeney.  Orchestra begins the music after the prelude - curtain opens, smoke pours out into the orchestra - the chorus begins "Attend the tale of Sweeney Todd, he served a dark and a vengeful God....etc.," at which point we hear what we thought was the FRENCH HORNS - kind of "stuck" on a note.  Before long singers were dropping off and stopping - sort of a wave across a rather large stage.  We realized that it was NOT a French Horn, but the fire alarm going off which just happened to be right on pitch with the French Horns in the opening passages.  WELL needless to say, we had to stop, vacate the building (THANKFULLY they had a fire curtain but it didn't drop - otherwise we would have been out of business because the closest company that could reset it was in Cincinnati and we were in Lexington, KY)....we vacate the building and have to wait for three full alarm fire trucks show up, clear the building as safe and try to regroup.  Here we all are outdoors on campus but it's a public street - in full, BIZARRE makeup and regalia looking like a bunch of Halloween weirdos - waiting for word if we could carry on.  Fire department clears the building, we go back, AUDIENCE reassumes their seats, orchestra starts, LESS FOG this time, curtain opens, we carry on 45 minutes late - and do the entire show.  NEVER did we lose an audience member, show was a smashing success, and we have this crazy story to tell long after the fact.
 
DRY ICE - fog hangs fairly low to the ground/stage so perhaps a TEST RUN before might be in order.  PLUS it's FOG - like mist - but not the smoke associated with fog machines so perhaps it wouldn't set off the alarms.  Further, I've seen dry ice machines use a long, long length of dryer hose or any large diameter hose with fan forced airway - from way way off stage (actually in another room isolated and even soundproofed) to distribute the fog and it worked beautifully.  NO loud sound, just rolling plumes of white fog that hung low to the stage and cascaded over the edge and down to the floor.  MAYBE if you do a test to see if fog will set off alarms or not.  Usually the water doesn't happen until heat or fire sets those off - just smoke might set off the alarm but not the sprinklers.  Interesting dilemma and one that brought back that Sweeney memory - fondly?  I THINK!!?? HAHA!!    Embarrassed
 
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JoeMc
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bullet Posted: 2/15/08 at 10:27am
Your correct Tony I should have mentioned that sprinkler supression systems, are set off by heat. However delugeare normaly actived by two seperate detectors, being in an alarm state. There is a 90 second delay after the second detector, before the deluge is activated. However detection can be by smoke or heat.
With the fire curtain [aka - the Iron this also can be activated by either, which isolates the stage from the auditorium.
With a lot of older theatres the Iron was operated on a hydrolic system, which is oporated each night when closing down the theatre & raised the next day & reset.
We don't use them in Oz any more, opting instead for the exhaust fan operation.
But you right Tony that dry ice won't set off the fire alarm,because it is heavier than air & finds the lowest level. Smoke detectors are installed at the highest piont in the cieling/roof.
Dry ice machines are easily made, using a steel rubbish [garbage] bin system & as suggested elephant hose with inline fans. But you may be better off in regard to safety, hiring in a propriety brand unit. Hazers can be a problem as they are cooled smoke & will rise after the smoke reheats. Co2 is not an option, as it is a health hazard & will set off  the smoke detectors, because it is a gas.
So you need to take the time &  investigate the fire system with the venue mansaagement.
The sensative detection system suggests it being smoke detectors are being used.
 
 
 
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neilfortin
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bullet Posted: 2/15/08 at 10:53am
Thank you so much guys! I will definitely take a look into what type of system it is. The area which we use...I'm sure you have read this someplace else on the forum...is actually an old mansion...converted into a lodge for a camp. The room we use is the banquet room. They have recently (probably 5 or so years ago-due to the proceeds from our shows) put in a new sprinkler system throughout the whole house. I'll have to check with our rec. commission on what type of system is up there!

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neilfortin
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bullet Posted: 2/15/08 at 2:09pm
Update: Called the local fire cheif he's gonna come check out the building and the machine!
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neilfortin
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bullet Posted: 2/26/08 at 9:05am
The fire inspector came up...we smoked the place out, and it didn't affect the fire alarms, or the smoke detectors, and our sprinkler system is only heat activated!
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bullet Posted: 2/26/08 at 7:51pm
Blimey Niel that is worry!
It may be that an innovative 'do gooder has cobbled the detection system? [possibly to cut out continual false alarms?]
Is the Camp venue owners going to have the system checked &/or upgraded. Or has the Fire Inspector given them a non compliace brief?
If they are to do a fix up, ensure they leave instructions of isolating the stage zones. {This should be on the Fire Indicator Panel [FIP] anyway!}.
 
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neilfortin
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bullet Posted: 3/03/08 at 1:09pm

The fog lay low enough that I'm not even sure that it reached the detectors up in the ceiling. We also turned the ceiling fans on to direct the air downward which helped the fog from reaching the detectors as well. Our chief seemed satisfied with that! Thanks for the concern! I'll post some Cyrano pics soon!

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bullet Posted: 3/15/08 at 3:32pm
ive used an Antari Ice Machine... it gives a low - lying fog that doesnt rise to set off the alarms.  dry ice is a pain in the neck... this machine takes regular ice and a small amount of fluid.  the fog produced does NOT affect singers or actors (if it does, its just in their heads) it is mostly water vapor.  my high school has an extremely sensitive fire alarm too, (dust sets it off) and we performed FOOTLOOSE using this machine 4 nights and 6 rehearsals without problem.  i have also used it in the past at other venues.
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