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Message Icon Topic: Is there art without an audience?(Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post Reply Post New Topic
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MartyW
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bullet Posted: 11/13/06 at 2:35pm
Art is Art.... But sometimes it comes down to the bottom line... Or in my view.. the ORIGINAL line.. Audience and theater both come from the Greek... Theater, a place where one "sees"... Audience, those who "Hear"... Allowing that your art is both audio and visual of course...  Most of us do strictly "Amateur" theater.. Which of course is from the French for doing somethign "For the Love of"...  Most of us are not paid for what we do, nor can we afford to do it without some form of subsidy.  So, that bottom line again being, how can we do amature theater if we can't keep the seeing place open, because no one has come to hear?.... God, I love how everything has more than one side... I also like a chance to just spout off occationally,... Thanks for both..
Marty W

"Till next we trod the boards.."
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bullet Posted: 11/13/06 at 5:21pm
One of the theaters I direct for chose a show a few years ago which not only dropped the proverbial "f" bomb, but the "c" bomb as well.  The board's feeling was they really wanted to do the show and felt they should not "self censor".  I applaude them for it.  If a theater wants to do shows off the beaten track, they must take the full step and if they want to do "Arsonic and Old Lace" and "Harvey" forever.  Well, I suppose there's still a market for that too, but you're not really giving your audience much credit, are you?

Something I learned in improv and try to remember as I approach each show I do.............I always remind myself, treat the audience as if they are smarter than I am.
Investigate. Imagine. Choose.
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VPA1
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bullet Posted: 11/14/06 at 7:19pm
Thanks for everyone's input regarding this issue.

To Gaafa: you very well may have be correct. The board's position is that
the potential risk was greater than the potential payoff.
To Theatrestation: YOU hit the nail on the head. Damn, how did you
know? A disgruntled former employee got ahold of the issue and
drummed up the newspapers. And all in all, I've directed many many
plays for our CT and remove language I find offensive to our audiences.
NO ONE has ever approached me afterwards and said,"Golly gee whiz,
that show woulda been a lot better is you had cussed more." Clearly, no
one misses it. And subsituting less contentious language fills the
emotional bill just as well without loosing revenue and reputation in our
community.
To MikeO: You are also correct. The Board seriously erred in allowing it
to go forward into the season ads and then backing down on the
language issue mid season. You have esp, Mike.
To JShieldsIowa: As a director, I am very aware of my primary objective:
to keep the audience in the moment. From a very practical perspective,
hard core language more often than not removes audiences from the
moment and then requires us to work harder to bring them back. For
me, it is a practical issue as well as a personal one.

Thanks everyone for responding, it has been very enlightening.

Larry
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bullet Posted: 11/16/06 at 5:17pm

Originally posted by VPA1

I've directed many many plays for our CT and remove language I find offensive to our audiences.

Please read the threads on changing profanity and videotaping before you continue this practice.  You are identified in your profile by name and theatre, and there are representatives of publishing houses on this very forum.

I don't want to beat a dead horse - I lost my horsebeating stick  - but please realize that you are putting your theatre at risk.

POB
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falstaff29
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bullet Posted: 11/16/06 at 11:54pm
Originally posted by VPA1


And subsituting less contentious language fills the
emotional bill just as well without loosing revenue and reputation in our
community.


Does it?  How would you know?  Do you do two versions of the show- Fridays, they say "f---" and Saturdays they say fig, and you poll the audiences afterwards?

You may think the emotional impact is still there, but it's not.  Words have meaning.  Ever catch Pulp Fiction on cable tv (and, yes, it does pop up every once in a while), where they dub all the language over?  Is the emotional impact still there?  Of course not, because language (including foul language) is an art form when in the right hands.

The only reason you might think the emotional impact of a show is the same with the language cleaned up is because you haven't given the actual language of the play the chance to speak to you and enrich you.  Hey, people who drink Passport scotch cough and make bad faces when offered quality single-malt.  It's the same thing here.

And if there are shows I think have gratuitous language, guess what: I don't do them.  It's that simple.  And there are just as many shows that use profanity for a purpose.

20-something f-words.... that's nothing.  I bet the audience wouldn't even give it a thought in the context of the show.  But your group chose to make the decision for them.  The paper was right to call you guys out on it.
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MartyW
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bullet Posted: 11/17/06 at 8:47am

Speaking of the dead horse.... And referencing the never ending thread on changing profanity, although the nay sayers are correct in every moral, legal and ethical position, and as the theaters who feel they can't use that language should have thought better of picking those shows during play reading, there is another fact here.  Those who keep saying, "Your audience probably won't notice", "You have to grow your audience" "you won't loose patrons".. etc etc etc, I have one thing to say, you are soooooo lucky to be in the communities that you are.  Many, many theaters are operating in places where they get complaints for the mildest of cuss words.  I belong to a fairly well supported theater in a highly conservative city in Ohio.  We have had numerous complaints come to the board. Particularly for using the J.C's & G.D.'s.  Now don't bother preaching to me, because I said already that I agree.. But some of these theaters situations are real.. Just this year we got an irate letter from a group of customers.  We did Auntie Mame.  They thought that it should be a perfectly acceptable family show.  But they found huge offence in the "Child Abuse" that the show had in it.  In fact as a minister and his guests (who happened to work with sexually abused children)they felt in was unconscionable that we did a play where the main character supported her minor nephew to go to a school where they ran around naked.  Obviously, not the intent of the piece.. But patrons were offended... It happens.   Again, I don't think it should stop us from doing good theater, and I do think that our language is limited enough without using all the words available to us, but I do not believe we should be inferring naivety on the part of those whose demographics make this a problem for them...

Rant complete.... Thanks.

Marty W

"Till next we trod the boards.."
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bullet Posted: 11/17/06 at 1:32pm

Should we let one or two audience members dictate what we produce and what the audience sees?  MartyW mentioned that "patrons were offended" during the prooduction of "Auntie Mame".  Count 'em:  two patrons and two guests were offended (out of an audience that night of 124 and a total viewership of about 700-800) .  How about the majority of the audience that doesn't object to mature situations and language?  Don't we owe it to them to present quality scripts and productions that might contain some adult language?

I am well aware of the situation that MartyW described involving "Auntie Mame".  I was in that production and in fact was in the middle of a major and very quick costume change in the entryway when the offended patrons charged through.  They were asked to wait until the change was completed, but refused, and not only distrubed the rest of the audience with their ill-timed exit in the middle of a scene, but made me late for my entrance.  Not to mention exposing me in my skivvies to the rest of the audience when they opened the door leading to the exit!  (Which, I suppose, some audience members might have found offensive in itself...for various reasons.)

Granted, patrons don't come to shows specifically because they might have the opportunity to hear possibly offensive words, but I think the majority of them accept that type of language in the context of the rest of the show, AS LONG AS IT IS NOT GRATUITOUS!  And if the script contains gratuitous language, don't produce that show!!!!  You can't base your season selections on the small number of people that might be offended when the majority doesn't object.  They hear a lot worse on TV and in the movies.  Yes, they have the option of turning off the tube or not buying movie tickets, but don't they also have the option of not buying theatre tickets?  I think that if you make an effort in your show publicity to inform the public that the production contains mature material, the responsibility is then incumbent upon them as to whether they see the show or not.  Yes, we need to put "butts in the seats" (oops!  I hope the use of the word "b--ts" didn't offend anyone!), but I really haven't noticed a drop-off in ticket sales when these types of disclaimers appear in the advertising.  I think the majority of audience members cares more about the quality of the scripts produced and the quality of the productions than about the language in them.  If you allow that quality to drop, that's when you start losing audience members.

Not to mention the legalities involved in altering the scripts, a topic we seem to have beaten to death in this and other threads without it actually getting through to some of the people posting messages.  Edit at your own risk!!!  You might want to reread some of the horror stories that have already been posted (see also the thread on editing out profanity) re:  theatres that have been busted for changing genders, omitting or combining characters, changing language, eliminating scenes, etc., etc., etc.

As MartyW said, "Rant completed.  Thanks."

"I've worked long and hard to earn the right to be called Diva!"
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MartyW
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bullet Posted: 11/17/06 at 2:11pm

I knew I'd smoke you out... lol.

But... I state again, if they don't feel comfortable, they shouldn't do'em... If they do'em, do'em..  My particular rant comes from the impression I get from multiple entries in the multiple threads that are tied to this, that those who are concerned are wrong or naieve... I think each theaters position is different, and need to be respected... Is NO theater better than "guarded" theater.. Maybe.. But I doubt it.

Marty W

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bullet Posted: 11/17/06 at 3:37pm

I had a wonderful response to MartyW's last post, but the Board had an outage, and it got lost.  I doubt if I can replicate it, so I won't even try.  But, believe me, it was great!

Marty:  who are the "they"s in your statement "if they don't feel comfortable, they shouldn't do 'em...if they do 'em,do 'em"?  Was a little confused about to whom each of them was referring.

 

"I've worked long and hard to earn the right to be called Diva!"
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bullet Posted: 11/17/06 at 5:59pm

I directed a production of Little Shop of Horrors a couple years back. The theatre I was working with at the time had a policy of inviting special groups to a "preview night". One of the groups that really, REALLY wanted to come was an organization that deals with battered women. I was concerned about them bringing their clients to the show because of Audrey getting beat by the Dentist. It was made abundantly clear to them that this was in the show and it might be an issue for some clients because the slap scene was very realistic and somewhat disturbing. They thanked me for the warning and came anyway. EVERY PERSON from that group LOVED the show and were talking about it for weeks afterwards. Had I told them not to come I would not have had those 50 people out their promoting my show by word-of-mouth.

I completely understand there are theatres out there that operate in conservative communities. At the same time - there are thousands upon thousands of scripts to chose from. I would be really upset if someone came in after I had directed a show and changed it without my permission. A playwright spends much more time on crafting a show. Show playwrights the respect and do the show as written or don't do it at all.

As for the "f-bomb" - there is a wonderful book out there (can't think of the name, but every director should read it) that states "f*ck" is the angriest word in the English language. There is a reason why a playwright decided on using that word. I cannot imagine what other word would have the blunt force as the "f-bomb" and could easily evoke the same amount of emotion felt behind hearing/saying/reading that word. Please, if there is a substitute that is not offensive, let me know. (I just don't think "poop", "crud" and "phooey" would get the same meaning across!)

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