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falstaff29
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bullet Posted: 11/02/06 at 1:47pm
Of course the scriptwriter has a reason for writing what he does into the script (except, arguably, with Shakespeare, because what we have is an idealized version of usu. 2 or more deliberately-distinct versions of the play).  I just don't think that the reason always deals with motivation.

I think writing character bios IS "B---s---."  If the actor wanted the character to be divorced four times, he would've written it into the script.  You're not respecting the script if you decide that everything needs to be psychologically-motivated, when it's clear that some of it is written for another reason, like as a plot device.

As for characters being under-developed, or un-developed, I'm sure the playwright knows that!  Actors and directors shouldn't be "correcting" that.  Why isn't the character three-dimensional?  Probably because the playwright has a certain use for him, and making him too three-dimensional would shift the balance of the play too far from the playwright's intent.

And, a lot of plays (e.g., Attic tragedy, farce, expressionism) just aren't meant to consider motivation as acting gurus understand it.  It's irrelevant to their point.
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bullet Posted: 11/02/06 at 4:27pm

Originally posted by falstaff29

Of course the scriptwriter has a reason for writing what he does into the script (except, arguably, with Shakespeare, because what we have is an idealized version of usu. 2 or more deliberately-distinct versions of the play).  I just don't think that the reason always deals with motivation.

I can see you and I are going to be at polar ends of this argument.  Perhaps one of the reasons the question "What's my motivation?" has become such an actor-centric cliche is simply because it is a question that the actor must ask CONSTANTLY (preferably, of himself and not the director).  It is the actor's JOB to find motivation for everything he does.  Like it or not, by the time opening night rolls around and there's an actor onstage who's STILL unsure what they're doing, then they have no business being on stage.

Even Shakespeare (no matter what version you're counting) wrote many things that are largely expositional, plot-driven and descriptive due to the limitations he faced, yet rather than have a narrator step forth and do it (as he did in the prologue of "Romeo & Juliet") Nine times out of Ten he CHOSE to have a character reveal the information.  As an actor playing this character, it suddenly befalls upon me to understand WHY I'm stopping the action of the play to disperse all this.  And as an actor LISTENING to this speech, it's up to me to figure out why I'm standing there, taking all this in and not saying "Yes, I can see that, you dolt!"

Originally posted by falstaff29

I think writing character bios IS "B---s---."  If the actor wanted the character to be divorced four times, he would've written it into the script. 

Sometimes certain information is difficult to work into natural conversation and so the playwright leaves it out.  Sometimes, it might be an idea that the playwright hadn't thought of yet helps an actor discover his motivation.

As I'm paraphrasing what was written in a previous post on another thread "The parts in black [ink] belong exclusively to the playwright.  The white bits are mine to do with as I please."

Writing character bios CAN be a wasteful exercise -- but that's simply all it was -- "an exercise."  We never changed a single word of dialogue or altered any phrasing of the script to suit our bios.  What WAS altered was our attitudes toward the characters and what they were saying.  We began to see them in a new light, with more depth.

Originally posted by falstaff29

You're not respecting the script if you decide that everything needs to be psychologically-motivated, when it's clear that some of it is written for another reason, like as a plot device.

On the contrary!  If you're devoting that much time to discover the nuances of EVERYTHING, then you begin to respect the script even more!  This was the lesson I learned (and I was trying to impress on the others on this forum).  Our initial reaction to the script was that it was a worthless piece of fluff.  The director didn't want that attitude to come across in the production.  She FORCED us to discover the nuance, depth and meaning which made me realize:  Who am I to decide which script is worthy of my respect?  Treating EVERY script as if it were brilliant makes doing the job of an actor worthwhile and often challenging.


Originally posted by falstaff29

As for characters being under-developed, or un-developed, I'm sure the playwright knows that!  Actors and directors shouldn't be "correcting" that. 

Playwrights might know that, but not always.  And if they do, then they're relying on the actors to bring their own personality or ideosyncracies to the performance to flesh it out. 

As someone who's also written scripts, whenever I (unintentionally) saddle a poor actor with an under-developed role, I become absolutely THRILLED when the actor finds ways to breathe life into it.  First of all, it makes me look good -- like I knew what I was doing in the first place. 

Originally posted by falstaff29

Why isn't the character three-dimensional?  Probably because the playwright has a certain use for him, and making him too three-dimensional would shift the balance of the play too far from the playwright's intent.

As far as I'm concerned a character can never be "too three-dimensional (?!)"  It's precisely that goal that I attempt to achieve as an actor.  It's what I look for as a director.  And it's something I greatly appreciate as an audience member.

Whenever small children undertake any kind of production, it is often the adults who drill into them "Learn your lines and say them loudly."

Unfortunately, for many actors, this is the ONLY lesson they've learned from acting and never waver from this.  What I'm trying to say is there's more information BETWEEN the lines, if you only look for it. 

How is this different from a designer deciding exactly what shade to paint the set, or a costumer selecting what type of collar should be on the leading lady's blouse?  If it's not specified in the script, (and unless the playwright is sitting in on the rehearsals) then we can never be absolutely certain what the playwright's intentions were. 

Originally posted by falstaff29

And, a lot of plays (e.g., Attic tragedy, farce, expressionism) just aren't meant to consider motivation as acting gurus understand it.  It's irrelevant to their point.

I agree, some forms of theater don't lend themselves to this philosophy.  But I disagree about "farce" being one of them.  Nothing spurs characters on to more and more outrageous situations than finding the reasons for their actions in farce.

And for an actor to dismiss motivation altogether as "irrelevant" is an attitude that I find reckless at best and arrogant at worst.  I've seen too many actors rely simply on the words the carry their performances (especially in our old friend, Neil Simon).  They figure the lines are smart enough or clever enough to make up for any characterizations they might neglect to create.

When Mike Nichols directed the first production of Simon's "Barefoot in the Park" he told the cast at one point to "forget we're doing a comedy and let's pretend we're doing 'King Lear.'"

He knew the value of investing importance in every line.  Motivation is what makes acting real.  It makes characters believable. 

"None of us really grow up. All we ever do is learn how to behave in public." -- Keith Johnstone
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falstaff29
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bullet Posted: 11/02/06 at 6:43pm
We're never going to agree on this, and we're talking at each other.  I'm moving on to other posts.
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eveharrington
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bullet Posted: 11/03/06 at 3:58am
Ladies and Gentlemen the winner by K.O. Topper!!!!!

"If nothing else, there's applause... like waves of love pouring over the footlights."
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bullet Posted: 11/03/06 at 10:48am
I agree with eveharrington:  BRAVO Topper!!!! You expressed my feelings exactly!

A play is merely literature until it is brought to life by the actors (under the guidance of the director, of course). And isn't that what acting is all about:  bringing the characters and the situations to life?  And some of the ways to do that are to study motivation, subtext, back story, etc., etc., etc.  I sure hate to see a show where the characters are just cardboard cutouts.  Don't you think we owe it to the playwright to make a performance of his/her play as good as we can?  There is more to acting than just learning the lines and not tripping on the furniture. 

Many editions of scripts have very few or no stage directions included. Are you just going to have your actors come in and stay in the same place for the whole show just because the playwright hasn't specified what blocking he/she wants?  No, you need to take what the playwright has given you and use that as a platform on which to build your performance.  Theatre is about CREATING!!! Creating characters with dimension, creating blocking, creating ensemble...

And falstaff29, I think it's a shame that you are unwilling to continue this "lively discussion".  Isn't that what this Board is all about:  sharing knowledge and expressing opinions? I don't think that's just "talking at each other"!
"I've worked long and hard to earn the right to be called Diva!"
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falstaff29
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bullet Posted: 11/03/06 at 1:44pm
Well, Topper's posts are getting increasingly long, and misrepresent some of what I'm saying.  I've been having this same argument with theater artists (both live and on boards like this) for years; neither of us is going to convince the other like this.  I have a life.

Besides, Hornby and Mamet both express my basic views on this subject far better than I can.
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eveharrington
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bullet Posted: 11/03/06 at 3:07pm
Originally posted by falstaff29

Well, Topper's posts are getting increasingly long, and misrepresent
some of what I'm saying. I've been having this same argument with
theater artists (both live and on boards like this) for years; neither
of us is going to convince the other like this. I have a life.

Besides, Hornby and Mamet both express my basic views on this subject far better than I can.



Well look, Falstaff, Those of us with no life enjoy the discussions on this board, the longer the better. Topper can't really misrepresent you using your own quotes. Besides unless your real name is Copernicus then the fact that you have to continually argue your viewpoint to everyone might make a reasonable person stop and reconsider their argument. Thats OK though, I hope you'll find time in your full and much more exciting than ours life to continue posting. If we all agreed it would be boring.
"If nothing else, there's applause... like waves of love pouring over the footlights."
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whitebat
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bullet Posted: 12/02/07 at 11:32pm
I think some actors' focus on motivation is a misunderstanding of "method acting".  I am getting a lot of questions from one particular actor in the interactive murder mystery we are currently rehearsing for.  They tend to be motivation related "Why would the Mayor do this or that?".  I think it is because we don't have much of a script, and a lot of actions are plot driven without concrete motivation for the final cause (the first cause of the action being motivated by the nature of the character).  The other actors are apparently finding their own motivation, which is all to the good.  Sometimes actors discussing motivations with each other seemed to be more productive than them asking the director about it.
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