Community Theater Green Room Discussion Board: Ethical question re: taking show on road

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flowertowngirl
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Guest

Topic: Ethical question re: taking show on road
Posted: 2/18/05 at 11:18am

Our theater put on "Fences" as one of our regular season shows and it ran for 3 weeks, just ending last weekend. Now we find out that the director (who is not paid) is taking the show to another area theater in two weeks. He is taking the whole cast and I assume using our costumes and props (not entirely sure about that) and he is getting paid. Here's the thing - its not "his" show! It's "our" show. This other theater did not have to provide any rehearsal space (he rehearsed this show at our theater for 11 weeks) for this show to get ready for performance night. Our theater sometimes contracts with another performing arts center in town (not the same one doing "Fences") to take a show over there and we get paid for this. We usually take a show that has just closed so that we are not in competition with ourselves. It just doesn't seem ethical that this other theater doing "Fences" profits after we provided the time and the space and the money to get this show ready. What do you guys think? And if he is using his own costumes and props, does that make a difference in you opinion? I'd appreciate any input!

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Topper
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Joined: 1/27/05
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 543

Posted: 2/18/05 at 12:58pm

You raise many good questions.
First of all, looking at this from a strictly legal
standpoint:
Your theater does not own "Fences" and your rights
to it ended as soon as the show ended.
Likewise, you don't own the director or the cast,
assuming neither was paid or have "non-compete"
contracts.
The only thing you possibly could own are the sets,
props and costumes IF THEY WERE BUILT BY
YOUR COMPANY. If these were rented or built by
outside sources, you have no claim to these either.
Your theater company paid for rental of rehearsal
space and you got your product: - a three week run of
"Fences", which by what I can divine from your letter,
was very well-received and done to specifications.

It was so good, in fact, that another theater wanted it.
If this theater is not in direct competition or violating
any rights with your theater or the other performing
arts center you normally contract with, then there is
nothing you can do about it.

Supposing they had announced they were going to
produce "Fences" as part of their season? It's two
weeks after your show closed, they could have
conceivably hired the same director and he could
have conceivably hired the same cast.

Is it legal? Unfortunately, yes.
Is it ethical? That's another matter.

The most you could do is ask for shared billing on
the posters and program, as a "joint production" but I
doubt you'll get that. You may settle for a "Special
Thanks" in the program, if they are willing for go for
that. But frankly, unless this new production is using
anything owned directly by your theater or theater
company, they owe you nothing.

Sorry I couldn't have better news.

"None of us really grow up. All we ever do is learn how to behave in public." -- Keith Johnstone

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DanLB
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Joined: 5/18/04
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 36

Posted: 2/18/05 at 1:03pm

I had occasion to think about this specific issues recently, and it's an intersting one that probably has no clear answer. Ethically, I think it's a bad thing for someone to do. Clearly if he wants to use your theater's props/costumes, you could at least demand a rental fee.

The bigger question is can anyone (other then the people who hold the show rights), actually own a show? If the director gets the entire cast back together and does the show at another theater, then that seems un-ethical. But what if the director does the same show elsewhere with a different cast, is he still "stealing" the show? What if he does it with a diffrerent cast but uses one or two of the original leads? It's a very interesting issue.

Dan

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flowertowngirl
Guest
Guest

Posted: 2/18/05 at 1:16pm

Thanks for the input! My gut tells me that what this director is doing does not violate any specific rule or law but it still seems like a crappy thing to do. Apparently, this has been planned all along (to bring the show to another theater) but he never told us about it until after the show closed at our theater. I spoke with a lawyer friend of mine who says its not an ethics law problem but rather an intellectual property problem, which is conflict of interest. He said there's nothing we can do but that in the future we should make the directors sign an exclusivity clause which states that they cannot take the show anywhere else without compensating us - that's the gist of what he said, anyway...obviously, it gets really complicated. Thanks for the input!

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Gaafa
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Joined: 3/21/04
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1181

Posted: 2/18/05 at 7:22pm

It may not be much of a consolation to you or your group, but if they think about it! It is only time that makes the difference.

If this had of happened a few years latter, where the Director, using the same cast, produced the show again, would there have been a problem?

Most groups will do this to a certain extent themselves, in smaller ways, such as reproducing aspects of the same set, costumes & using others mise en scene ideas! Even to point of using some of the same cast members &/or crew!

A lot of Directors will redirect the same show more than once, using ideas & empirical knowledge gained from a previous production, that they did sometime in their past, this is what we are all about!

In some respects & for what ever reason, your group didn?t take the risk of doing it on the road, this was their choice. The fact that the director took the risk instead, while it is not the point of your topic, should have the applause for making the effort, and having a successful production!

I agree it should not be done, & the fact that it was a success would be very hard to swallow indeed, but it happens every day, & more frequently every year!

We have been admonished for putting on a production that was done by another group here a year before, so we possibly are just as guilty, in much the same way! Especially when it was more successful!

I have often posed this question to a number of groups, after they have spent a lot of time & resources doing a season! Why they don?t perform it at other groups venues, with reciprocal arrangements being put in place!

In some cases it is only a matter of doing it in the next region or town! But we tend to insulate & isolate our selves, within our own four walls!

A number of small, very good, community theatre groups, who don?t have their own home venue, do this here! Which is quite a good way for both to profit & utalising the dark periods at a groups venues!

But that?s another story!

Joe
Western Gondawandaland
turn right @ Perth.
Hear the light & see the sound.
Toi Toi Toi Chookas {{"chook [chicken] it is"}
May you always play
to a full house}

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Topic: Ethical question re: taking show on road( Topic Closed)

Author	Message
flowertowngirl Guest	Topic: Ethical question re: taking show on road Posted: 2/18/05 at 11:18am
	Our theater put on "Fences" as one of our regular season shows and it ran for 3 weeks, just ending last weekend. Now we find out that the director (who is not paid) is taking the show to another area theater in two weeks. He is taking the whole cast and I assume using our costumes and props (not entirely sure about that) and he is getting paid. Here's the thing - its not "his" show! It's "our" show. This other theater did not have to provide any rehearsal space (he rehearsed this show at our theater for 11 weeks) for this show to get ready for performance night. Our theater sometimes contracts with another performing arts center in town (not the same one doing "Fences") to take a show over there and we get paid for this. We usually take a show that has just closed so that we are not in competition with ourselves. It just doesn't seem ethical that this other theater doing "Fences" profits after we provided the time and the space and the money to get this show ready. What do you guys think? And if he is using his own costumes and props, does that make a difference in you opinion? I'd appreciate any input!

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Topper Celebrity Joined: 1/27/05 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 543	Posted: 2/18/05 at 12:58pm
	You raise many good questions. First of all, looking at this from a strictly legal standpoint: Your theater does not own "Fences" and your rights to it ended as soon as the show ended. Likewise, you don't own the director or the cast, assuming neither was paid or have "non-compete" contracts. The only thing you possibly could own are the sets, props and costumes IF THEY WERE BUILT BY YOUR COMPANY. If these were rented or built by outside sources, you have no claim to these either. Your theater company paid for rental of rehearsal space and you got your product: - a three week run of "Fences", which by what I can divine from your letter, was very well-received and done to specifications. It was so good, in fact, that another theater wanted it. If this theater is not in direct competition or violating any rights with your theater or the other performing arts center you normally contract with, then there is nothing you can do about it. Supposing they had announced they were going to produce "Fences" as part of their season? It's two weeks after your show closed, they could have conceivably hired the same director and he could have conceivably hired the same cast. Is it legal? Unfortunately, yes. Is it ethical? That's another matter. The most you could do is ask for shared billing on the posters and program, as a "joint production" but I doubt you'll get that. You may settle for a "Special Thanks" in the program, if they are willing for go for that. But frankly, unless this new production is using anything owned directly by your theater or theater company, they owe you nothing. Sorry I couldn't have better news.
	"None of us really grow up. All we ever do is learn how to behave in public." -- Keith Johnstone
	IP Logged

DanLB Lead Joined: 5/18/04 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 36	Posted: 2/18/05 at 1:03pm
	I had occasion to think about this specific issues recently, and it's an intersting one that probably has no clear answer. Ethically, I think it's a bad thing for someone to do. Clearly if he wants to use your theater's props/costumes, you could at least demand a rental fee. The bigger question is can anyone (other then the people who hold the show rights), actually own a show? If the director gets the entire cast back together and does the show at another theater, then that seems un-ethical. But what if the director does the same show elsewhere with a different cast, is he still "stealing" the show? What if he does it with a diffrerent cast but uses one or two of the original leads? It's a very interesting issue. Dan
	IP Logged

flowertowngirl Guest	Posted: 2/18/05 at 1:16pm
	Thanks for the input! My gut tells me that what this director is doing does not violate any specific rule or law but it still seems like a crappy thing to do. Apparently, this has been planned all along (to bring the show to another theater) but he never told us about it until after the show closed at our theater. I spoke with a lawyer friend of mine who says its not an ethics law problem but rather an intellectual property problem, which is conflict of interest. He said there's nothing we can do but that in the future we should make the directors sign an exclusivity clause which states that they cannot take the show anywhere else without compensating us - that's the gist of what he said, anyway...obviously, it gets really complicated. Thanks for the input!
	IP Logged

Gaafa Celebrity Joined: 3/21/04 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1181	Posted: 2/18/05 at 7:22pm
	It may not be much of a consolation to you or your group, but if they think about it! It is only time that makes the difference. If this had of happened a few years latter, where the Director, using the same cast, produced the show again, would there have been a problem? Most groups will do this to a certain extent themselves, in smaller ways, such as reproducing aspects of the same set, costumes & using others mise en scene ideas! Even to point of using some of the same cast members &/or crew! A lot of Directors will redirect the same show more than once, using ideas & empirical knowledge gained from a previous production, that they did sometime in their past, this is what we are all about! In some respects & for what ever reason, your group didn?t take the risk of doing it on the road, this was their choice. The fact that the director took the risk instead, while it is not the point of your topic, should have the applause for making the effort, and having a successful production! I agree it should not be done, & the fact that it was a success would be very hard to swallow indeed, but it happens every day, & more frequently every year! We have been admonished for putting on a production that was done by another group here a year before, so we possibly are just as guilty, in much the same way! Especially when it was more successful! I have often posed this question to a number of groups, after they have spent a lot of time & resources doing a season! Why they don?t perform it at other groups venues, with reciprocal arrangements being put in place! In some cases it is only a matter of doing it in the next region or town! But we tend to insulate & isolate our selves, within our own four walls! A number of small, very good, community theatre groups, who don?t have their own home venue, do this here! Which is quite a good way for both to profit & utalising the dark periods at a groups venues! But that?s another story!
	Joe Western Gondawandaland turn right @ Perth. Hear the light & see the sound. Toi Toi Toi Chookas {{"chook [chicken] it is"} May you always play to a full house}
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