Community Theater Green Room Discussion Board: Power

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Nanette
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Joined: 8/01/06
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 399

Topic: Power
Posted: 5/09/07 at 12:44pm

I hope someone can guide me in the right direction, please.

We work in an OLD building ... built right around the turn of the century. The building has a "sound system" (nothing spectacular, but it works for now), but no real lights. We used pars with our last show, rigged to a homemade dimmer system. Needless to say, we had cables running everywhere!

Because the building is so old, there are few outlets, and even less power to run everything from one source. Yes, we've blown a few fuses ... which is our problem.

We want to invest in our own lightboard and sound system down the line. If we're having these problems now with finding enough power to light 4 pars at once, I'm afraid we'll have even more problems if we bring a real board in. The breaker box is in the basement, so I don't know if we can even tap directly into that.

ANY ideas would be great! Thanks.

In a world of margarine, be butter!

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biggertigger
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Joined: 4/16/07
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 188

Posted: 5/09/07 at 9:55pm

From the sounds of it, the place has not had an updated electrical system. My concern is that this can and will cause many problems even possible electrical fires in the future if the system is not update. When you do decide to invest in a new lighting and sound system it would be in your best interest to hire an electrictian to rewire the place and add in a new electrical box. He will also be able to set up power to where you wish to have your new lighting and sound systems.

In the mean time I implore you to hire an electrician now to look at the system and make sure it is in good working condition. If you still have fuses and the old fuse box, as I previously posted this may cause major problems for you.

Good luck.

The two greatest days in a theater persons life, the day you start a new show and the day the damn thing closes.

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dboris
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Joined: 2/10/04
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 124

Posted: 5/10/07 at 1:03pm

I agree with "biggertigger" this sounds like a case where you are going to need the help of a professional electrician. A par (depending on what type you have) could be as little as 100 Watts, but the instruments for a more serious lighting system can easily run 750 - 1000 Watts or more each. This can lead to some serious power requirements.

You also need to be concerned about your local fire marshal. If you do have jury-rigged system as you say, then it's very possible that you won't pass a fire inspection.

Dan

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Nanette
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Joined: 8/01/06
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 399

Posted: 5/10/07 at 2:17pm

Thank for the imput, folks. A profession electrician is the way I thought I was going to have to go. (BTW, it was an electrician who made our homemade dimmers.) Since our venue is a local church, I think I'll take it up with the Pastor first and see where she wants to go with this. Perhaps she'll have someone already in place for the electrical workings of the church.

In a world of margarine, be butter!

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Gaafa
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Joined: 3/21/04
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1181

Posted: 7/06/07 at 7:52am

Besides getting a qualified Sparky to update you venue.

What you are in need of is also a techie or one of your members who normaly operates as your 'Lampy' for shows.

Who can understand OHM'S LAW & is not color blind, who can work out the power available & required to run the production.

Here is a Calculator to help them determine the number of lamps they can use on each circuit available.

http://www.csgnetwork.com/ohmslaw.html

Each Lantern [light] will have an electrical rating plate which will give the Watts & Voltage of the unit, from that you can determine the Amps it will draw. ( divide the watts by the volts = Amps)

Then add up the lamps on the that circuit will give you the total Amps needed.

However converse with you Sparky & get him to give a schemetic of the venue power & supply capicity of the venue per phase.

Hopefully you will find that there is a 3 Phase supply to the bassement of which a sub distro board can be installed to your bio box & distributed via a patch curcuit system to feed the performance space.

In most cases it is only an upgrading of the mains supply & patch circiut baterns are utalised, between thebio/dimmers & the lamps. In most cases your member can do the work, supervised by the sparky, would save a lot of gold bricks & your techies get to know the system.

Joe
Western Gondawandaland
turn right @ Perth.
Hear the light & see the sound.
Toi Toi Toi Chookas {{"chook [chicken] it is"}
May you always play
to a full house}

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Mr. Lowell
Celebrity

Joined: 1/30/07
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 269

Posted: 7/06/07 at 5:07pm

Nanette, you don't just need an electrician, you need a theatrical electrician. You need someone who works in the industry and understands the unique requirements of a theatre venue.

I highly recommend the lighting systems from ETC. They are a leader in dimming systems, computer dimmer boards, as well as outstanding elipsoidal spotlights. They sell stuff for big theaters that is expensive, but they have some new portable lighting set-ups that are very affordable. Contact ETC and they will put you in touch with a rep. in your area who can draw up some different proposals for you.

In order to power the minimum stage lighting that you need, you will need your local commercial electrical contractor to install a large transformer with a new breaker panel. (If your building is so old that it still has "fuses"...you should be afraid...very afraid!)

The bad news for you is that in order to install your power supply and your dimmer racks, you may need to invest at least 50 to 100 grand. This is something that would require a large effort by your community and support from your local government.

If your present electrical system can only support 4 PAR Cans, then I would strongly advise against having your local techies try to jerry rig something. Someone will get zapped, or you will have a fire, or at very least, your power could go out on opening night. And after a worst-case electrical accident happens, could get you into legal problems with OSHA and/or your local fire marshall.

Yes, I understand how little money a small theatre company can have. I was there once. I feel a little guilty sitting here in my 6 million dollar theatre with 200 thousand watts of Source4 lekos and offering you advice. But I was in your exact position 30 years ago.

I was in an auditorium built in 1927 with old two-conductor wiring and asbestos insulation on the pigtails of our antique plano-convex spotlights. We had 12 dimmers backstage that were in a rack the size of three refrigerators! We called it "crispy critters" because of the crackling noises it made and smell of fried mice! In order to blackout all the dimmers at once, we needed two guys with 2x4s to push down all the big dimmer handles!

And when I did lights for a play held at an old church, I used homemade 150 watt PAR cans made out of #10 soup cans!...plus several household dimmers mounted in a wooden box. This infamous system was called "Trashtronics"! One night the show went dark because someone used the water fountain!...which was on the same outlet circuit as the spotlights. So, I can relate....

Well, anyway...you could "get by" on the cheap with a small lighting system. But even if you purchase used light fixtures and a tiny dimmer board from some local rock band...then you would STILL need power to run the stuff. You really need to get your antique wiring replaced before you get in trouble. Hey, maybe you can parlay the safety issue into a public urgency to support your fundraising efforts!

So, first things first:

1) A utility transformer with enough power to expand on your lighting package over the coming years.

2) A new breaker panel with circuits that can handle your expected loads.

3) Power distribution to plugs on the stage floor level, the stage electrics or grid, and the front of house or balcony positions.

Then, once you have the juice, you are finally SAFE. From that point, you are then ready to add on dimmer racks, dimmer controls, and new spotlights.

Nanette, please tell us where you are located and maybe someone on this Forum could recommend some good local consultants and contractors for you. Who knows, maybe there is another theatre within driving distance of you who's willing to donate some old lekos and fresnels to your efforts.

Good luck. -Dana

Mr. Lowell,
Lighting/Set Designer & Tech Director,
for the Linda Sloan Theatre,
in the Davison Center for the Arts,
at Greensboro Day School

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Gaafa
Celebrity

Joined: 3/21/04
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1181

Posted: 7/06/07 at 7:32pm

[QUOTE=Mr. Lowell]Nanette, you don't just need an electrician, you need a theatrical electrician. You need someone who works in the industry and understands the unique requirements of a theatre venue.

Your totally right about the difference between a local 'wire jerker' & a theatrical sparky!

Of course as we differ some what in the electric supply, with your lower voltage & subsiquent higher Amperage. Which amazes me, are they still using 2 wire conditions in theatre there?

Which brings back memories of working the old 'Sallt Water Dimmers, Lime & Hay burner lamps of my youth.

Strangly enoigh I'm going through a similar situation at present, with our local City Council who are refurbishing a community hall into a performance venue. They have no idea & prefer to charge ahead without any thought of theatrical requirements.

Unfortunately I have been through this situation many a time, where the electrical logistic have to be reworked completly to make them useable for a performance. Along with the susiquent bleeting of the bean counters, that there is no money left to rectify the problems.

It's always a good idea to sniff around your local theatres, as suggested, who can be very helpfull &/ or piont you in the right direction.

Joe
Western Gondawandaland
turn right @ Perth.
Hear the light & see the sound.
Toi Toi Toi Chookas {{"chook [chicken] it is"}
May you always play
to a full house}

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whitebat
Celebrity

Joined: 8/05/07
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 137

Posted: 8/07/07 at 12:13am

Our theater is the old High School (now Jr. High), which has not been kept up. We got a lot of use from the Altman 1000Q Followspot. Since all the colored lights are too far upstage to use much, we were able to do some neat color effects with the spot. We also used it for fill lighting where lights were not hung or burnt out. It has a 6 color changer, and weighs 94 lbs, so it can be moved. They make some other similar lights as well. Since it doesn't need dimmers it can go on another circuit.

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Gaafa
Celebrity

Joined: 3/21/04
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1181

Posted: 8/07/07 at 2:59am

Not sure Whitebat, what you mean by the upstage lighting can't be used, could it be they are an installed fixture. Something like boarder 'X'ray battens, as you discribe them as coloured lights?
Also about the lanterns that have burnt out or not hung, what is the problem with them?

Joe
Western Gondawandaland
turn right @ Perth.
Hear the light & see the sound.
Toi Toi Toi Chookas {{"chook [chicken] it is"}
May you always play
to a full house}

IP Logged

Lights and Sound
Community Theater Green Room Discussion Board :Producing Theater :Lights and Sound

Author	Message
Nanette Celebrity Joined: 8/01/06 Online Status: Offline Posts: 399	Topic: Power Posted: 5/09/07 at 12:44pm
	I hope someone can guide me in the right direction, please. We work in an OLD building ... built right around the turn of the century. The building has a "sound system" (nothing spectacular, but it works for now), but no real lights. We used pars with our last show, rigged to a homemade dimmer system. Needless to say, we had cables running everywhere! Because the building is so old, there are few outlets, and even less power to run everything from one source. Yes, we've blown a few fuses ... which is our problem. We want to invest in our own lightboard and sound system down the line. If we're having these problems now with finding enough power to light 4 pars at once, I'm afraid we'll have even more problems if we bring a real board in. The breaker box is in the basement, so I don't know if we can even tap directly into that. ANY ideas would be great! Thanks.
	In a world of margarine, be butter!

	IP Logged

biggertigger Celebrity Joined: 4/16/07 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 188	Posted: 5/09/07 at 9:55pm
	From the sounds of it, the place has not had an updated electrical system. My concern is that this can and will cause many problems even possible electrical fires in the future if the system is not update. When you do decide to invest in a new lighting and sound system it would be in your best interest to hire an electrictian to rewire the place and add in a new electrical box. He will also be able to set up power to where you wish to have your new lighting and sound systems. In the mean time I implore you to hire an electrician now to look at the system and make sure it is in good working condition. If you still have fuses and the old fuse box, as I previously posted this may cause major problems for you. Good luck.
	The two greatest days in a theater persons life, the day you start a new show and the day the damn thing closes.
	IP Logged

dboris Celebrity Joined: 2/10/04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 124	Posted: 5/10/07 at 1:03pm
	I agree with "biggertigger" this sounds like a case where you are going to need the help of a professional electrician. A par (depending on what type you have) could be as little as 100 Watts, but the instruments for a more serious lighting system can easily run 750 - 1000 Watts or more each. This can lead to some serious power requirements. You also need to be concerned about your local fire marshal. If you do have jury-rigged system as you say, then it's very possible that you won't pass a fire inspection. Dan
	IP Logged

Nanette Celebrity Joined: 8/01/06 Online Status: Offline Posts: 399	Posted: 5/10/07 at 2:17pm
	Thank for the imput, folks. A profession electrician is the way I thought I was going to have to go. (BTW, it was an electrician who made our homemade dimmers.) Since our venue is a local church, I think I'll take it up with the Pastor first and see where she wants to go with this. Perhaps she'll have someone already in place for the electrical workings of the church.
	In a world of margarine, be butter!
	IP Logged

Gaafa Celebrity Joined: 3/21/04 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1181	Posted: 7/06/07 at 7:52am
	Besides getting a qualified Sparky to update you venue. What you are in need of is also a techie or one of your members who normaly operates as your 'Lampy' for shows. Who can understand OHM'S LAW & is not color blind, who can work out the power available & required to run the production. Here is a Calculator to help them determine the number of lamps they can use on each circuit available. http://www.csgnetwork.com/ohmslaw.html Each Lantern [light] will have an electrical rating plate which will give the Watts & Voltage of the unit, from that you can determine the Amps it will draw. ( divide the watts by the volts = Amps) Then add up the lamps on the that circuit will give you the total Amps needed. However converse with you Sparky & get him to give a schemetic of the venue power & supply capicity of the venue per phase. Hopefully you will find that there is a 3 Phase supply to the bassement of which a sub distro board can be installed to your bio box & distributed via a patch curcuit system to feed the performance space. In most cases it is only an upgrading of the mains supply & patch circiut baterns are utalised, between thebio/dimmers & the lamps. In most cases your member can do the work, supervised by the sparky, would save a lot of gold bricks & your techies get to know the system.
	Joe Western Gondawandaland turn right @ Perth. Hear the light & see the sound. Toi Toi Toi Chookas {{"chook [chicken] it is"} May you always play to a full house}
	IP Logged

Mr. Lowell Celebrity Joined: 1/30/07 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 269	Posted: 7/06/07 at 5:07pm
	Nanette, you don't just need an electrician, you need a *theatrical* electrician. You need someone who works in the industry and understands the unique requirements of a theatre venue. I highly recommend the lighting systems from ETC. They are a leader in dimming systems, computer dimmer boards, as well as outstanding elipsoidal spotlights. They sell stuff for big theaters that is expensive, but they have some new portable lighting set-ups that are very affordable. Contact ETC and they will put you in touch with a rep. in your area who can draw up some different proposals for you. In order to power the minimum stage lighting that you need, you will need your local commercial electrical contractor to install a large transformer with a new breaker panel. (If your building is so old that it still has "fuses"...you should be afraid...very afraid!) The bad news for you is that in order to install your power supply and your dimmer racks, you may need to invest at least 50 to 100 grand. This is something that would require a large effort by your community and support from your local government. If your present electrical system can only support 4 PAR Cans, then I would strongly advise against having your local techies try to jerry rig something. Someone will get zapped, or you will have a fire, or at very least, your power could go out on opening night. And after a worst-case electrical accident happens, could get you into legal problems with OSHA and/or your local fire marshall. Yes, I understand how little money a small theatre company can have. I was there once. I feel a little guilty sitting here in my 6 million dollar theatre with 200 thousand watts of Source4 lekos and offering you advice. But I was in your exact position 30 years ago. I was in an auditorium built in 1927 with old two-conductor wiring and asbestos insulation on the pigtails of our antique plano-convex spotlights. We had 12 dimmers backstage that were in a rack the size of three refrigerators! We called it "crispy critters" because of the crackling noises it made and smell of fried mice! In order to blackout all the dimmers at once, we needed two guys with 2x4s to push down all the big dimmer handles! And when I did lights for a play held at an old church, I used homemade 150 watt PAR cans made out of #10 soup cans!...plus several household dimmers mounted in a wooden box. This infamous system was called "Trashtronics"! One night the show went dark because someone used the water fountain!...which was on the same outlet circuit as the spotlights. So, I can relate.... Well, anyway...you could "get by" on the cheap with a small lighting system. But even if you purchase used light fixtures and a tiny dimmer board from some local rock band...then you would STILL need power to run the stuff. You really need to get your antique wiring replaced before you get in trouble. Hey, maybe you can parlay the safety issue into a public urgency to support your fundraising efforts! So, first things first: 1) A utility transformer with enough power to expand on your lighting package over the coming years. 2) A new breaker panel with circuits that can handle your expected loads. 3) Power distribution to plugs on the stage floor level, the stage electrics or grid, and the front of house or balcony positions. Then, once you have the juice, you are finally SAFE. From that point, you are then ready to add on dimmer racks, dimmer controls, and new spotlights. Nanette, please tell us where you are located and maybe someone on this Forum could recommend some good local consultants and contractors for you. Who knows, maybe there is another theatre within driving distance of you who's willing to donate some old lekos and fresnels to your efforts. Good luck. -Dana
	Mr. Lowell, Lighting/Set Designer & Tech Director, for the Linda Sloan Theatre, in the Davison Center for the Arts, at Greensboro Day School
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Gaafa Celebrity Joined: 3/21/04 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1181	Posted: 7/06/07 at 7:32pm
	[QUOTE=Mr. Lowell]Nanette, you don't just need an electrician, you need a theatrical electrician. You need someone who works in the industry and understands the unique requirements of a theatre venue. Your totally right about the difference between a local 'wire jerker' & a theatrical sparky! Of course as we differ some what in the electric supply, with your lower voltage & subsiquent higher Amperage. Which amazes me, are they still using 2 wire conditions in theatre there? Which brings back memories of working the old 'Sallt Water Dimmers, Lime & Hay burner lamps of my youth. Strangly enoigh I'm going through a similar situation at present, with our local City Council who are refurbishing a community hall into a performance venue. They have no idea & prefer to charge ahead without any thought of theatrical requirements. Unfortunately I have been through this situation many a time, where the electrical logistic have to be reworked completly to make them useable for a performance. Along with the susiquent bleeting of the bean counters, that there is no money left to rectify the problems. It's always a good idea to sniff around your local theatres, as suggested, who can be very helpfull &/ or piont you in the right direction.
	Joe Western Gondawandaland turn right @ Perth. Hear the light & see the sound. Toi Toi Toi Chookas {{"chook [chicken] it is"} May you always play to a full house}
	IP Logged

whitebat Celebrity Joined: 8/05/07 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 137	Posted: 8/07/07 at 12:13am
	Our theater is the old High School (now Jr. High), which has not been kept up. We got a lot of use from the Altman 1000Q Followspot. Since all the colored lights are too far upstage to use much, we were able to do some neat color effects with the spot. We also used it for fill lighting where lights were not hung or burnt out. It has a 6 color changer, and weighs 94 lbs, so it can be moved. They make some other similar lights as well. Since it doesn't need dimmers it can go on another circuit.
	IP Logged

Gaafa Celebrity Joined: 3/21/04 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1181	Posted: 8/07/07 at 2:59am
	Not sure Whitebat, what you mean by the upstage lighting can't be used, could it be they are an installed fixture. Something like boarder 'X'ray battens, as you discribe them as coloured lights? Also about the lanterns that have burnt out or not hung, what is the problem with them?
	Joe Western Gondawandaland turn right @ Perth. Hear the light & see the sound. Toi Toi Toi Chookas {{"chook [chicken] it is"} May you always play to a full house}
	IP Logged

Topic: Power( Topic Closed)